In no case did these women give prior consent. So you are talking about giving consent after the act happened.
So, in your view, do men need to explicitly ask for consent before touching a woman?
You have no way of knowing this. Consent for non-sexual touching like hugs is usually not verbal, especially between friends and family. You have no way to know if these are friends/family of Biden and/or if they consented to these instances of touch.
Further, you’ve provided no indication that these women and girls gave their consent for images of them being touched to be used in this way.
It depends on the circumstances. Human inter-personal relations can be complicated.
Look at the videos. Do you really think Biden asked first? I do not know if Russell’s Teapot is really there or not but I feel comfortable in saying it is not there.
And as for the images thing I really do not know what you are after. They were all in a very public situation with loads of cameras pointed at them. Seems to me the consent is implicit. If they did not want to be photographed/recorded they need to not walk on the stage where cameras are pointed. Not like it is not obvious to anyone there.
Once again, consent for physical affection is not always verbal. Further, friends and family often hug and are affectionate with implied consent, and we don’t know if these are close friends or family of Biden (as Stephanie Carter has said she is).
I’ve made it very clear what I’m after – stop advocating the violation of the consent of these women and girls, when you have no idea if they’ve consented to you using their images in this specific way. Yes, they consented to having their photo or video taken, but that is not consent for that photo or video to be utilized in any and every possible way. Presumably you can think of some gross ways that you would agree with me that it would be inappropriate to utilize these images and videos for without their consent; this is another one – still gross (because it’s implying that you know how these women and girls felt and whether they consented or not), just gross in a different way. Stop being gross about these women and girls – assuming consent in strangers is gross; so is assuming lack of consent. They can speak for themselves if they so choose.
Why not just use Flores’ words to criticize Biden? That’s certainly reasonable, and it doesn’t violate anyone’s consent. Reasonable, appropriate, and not gross in any way.
Maybe we should use the Pence rule and never be near women without our wife or at least a chaperone present?
Biden does need to at least publicly say, he understands that his actions in the past (the touching) was not always appreciated and he would ensure he stopped doing so.
BTW: Does this mean politicians can no longer kiss babies? Not the worst thing for either I would guess.
Maybe another rule would be that women who don’t like a particular touch should say so right then, not five or ten years later. And the rest of the rule is that when the woman does say so, the result should be a ceasing of the action, not some sort of social or even physical reaction by the man. How about that?
This ignores the power dynamics that may be at play (e.g. your boss who can fire you if you speak up) or the social situation at the moment (e.g. you are on stage with a million cameras pointed at you and you fear making a fuss).
Your world sounds great but it is not the one we live in.
On the bright side, Sanders leads other Dems by double-digits among 18-29 year old Democrats. So maybe getting Biden out of the way is best anyway. It is 31% for Sanders to Biden’s 20%.
Better link for Poll results: Bernie Holds Double-Digit Lead Over 2020 Rivals Among Young Democratic Voters: Poll
Who needs a chaperone? We have lots of examples of Biden being creepy publicly.
And the Pence Rule seems to imply that Pence can not control himself around women unless his wife is present to keep him in check.
I am over 50 and not once have I done something I’d need a wife to stop me from doing (indeed most of that time I was not married). This isn’t to say I have not done stupid things but nothing #MeToo inappropriate. It is not hard at all. Really…I don’t even think about it. I just don’t do creepy shit. I am not sure why this is so difficult for some guys.
Whack-a-Mole can you not appreciate that Stephanie Carter feels violated by people like you appropriating her image and making up a story to go with it, appropriating her right to her lived experience?
Passing along cherry picked images in no context of people, insinuating how they were were being mistreated, without their consent and without them claiming such, is violating these people and appropriating their lived experiences for propaganda purposes. It is no more illegal than a kiss on the back of the head without consent, but it is in my mind worse ethically, and much creepier.
As for the question “do men need to explicitly ask for consent before touching a woman?” More appropriately: do humans need to explicitly ask for consent before touching another human?
And I think even you’d agree with** iiandyiiii** here that it is context and situational dependent. Tapping another person on the shoulder on the subway after they do not hear your excuse me request to move so you get get out? Touching someone with your hip on their hip or even backside as you squeeze by? No verbal consent needed. A third grade teacher holding the hand of a student as they cross the street walking on a field trip? A friend seeing a friend in distress and putting a hand on should or holding their hand? A politician reaching to shake hands or kissing a baby shoved in their face? A doctor reaching out to touch someone who they just gave bad news to?
Consent is sometimes presumed by circumstance.
Intent does matter as well and this is one point where iiandyiiii and I disagree - friendly touch that turns out to be unwanted is not per se “entitlement.” That word implies the intent is to get something selfishly and the intent with friendly touch is often meant to be giving something (comfort, support, whatever) not taking. Yes human communication is complicated and there are misunderstandings. With spoken communication and with nonverbal communication. Some people find being addressed by their first name to be nice, others find it presumptuous without explicit consent. Giving something that you thought would be received well that turns out to be something not wanted, is not being entitled; it is being mistaken.
I’m not sure if we actually disagree here – I’m saying that this feeling of entitlement can lead to someone being more likely to be mistaken in the manner you describe. In my personal experience, some people have this feeling of entitlement that their touch is always or usually welcome, and such folks are “mistaken” a lot more often than others without that sense of entitlement. Which isn’t the end of the world, but reasonably worth criticizing.
Are you sure? Are you sure you’ve never done something that someone took offense at but did not tell you? You know how every person you ever touched in any context felt about it?
Somehow I suspect that if we had cameras on you 24/7 for decades we could find a whole host of stills and short clips that look bad, and maybe even a person or so who took offense at the way you squeezed by, or the look you took down her shirt as she bent down without even realizing you did it.
No I don’t. I mean, how she describes her feelings of the event is fine. That is totally up to her.
But she was in a very public situation with lots and lots of pictures being taken. She has zero expectation of privacy in that moment.
And, since it jibes very closely with what Flores described it is in the news. Carter can feel “violated” by this all she wants but I see no reason the picture should not be circulated in light of what is in the news. It has been out there for awhile…has Carter been working diligently to get it out of circulation? I’d bet she hasn’t.
And this news highlights this problem.
We have Flores describing something that looks a lot like what we have many examples of Biden doing, including the picture of Biden and Carter.
Flores flags this as inappropriate.
Carter says it is fine.
Which is it? Who is right?
Is it your position that Biden (or any guy really) can be prosecuted for the same act only depending on how one person feels about that act?
Uggh. It’s been explained why you’re being creepy and gross, and you insist on continuing to be creepy and gross, about women and girls you’ve never met.
Blech. Unfortunately a very common sort of creepiness, but still creepy and gross.
I am sure.
You’d see plenty of dumb stuff but never inappropriately touching people.
And we have lots of examples of Biden doing this. It is not a one-time oopsie.
Once again…huh?
Do you have to work at being oblique?
Bright side? The last thing we want is enthusiasm for the aging socialist. The reason he did so well in 2016 was low-turnout caucuses. Caucuses test strength among informed politically-active Democrats. This is a group that will be irrelevant in the election of November 2020. It is uninformed politically-confused “independents” who will choose our next President. Is an intelligent aging socialist who they want?
Good thing then that he is not a Socialist.
What’s that? A Fact™? Everyone’s entitled to their own Facts™ these days.
Right off the Biden statement. Use the same writer?
Really, that’s what they all say. Especially the most clueless, they are very “sure.”
And you’ve never done or said anything racist (without even realizing it) either, right? It’s something others do.
FWIW I am confident that I have been clueless enough that I have offended without realizing it, by touch and by word, and would take someone at their word that I had. No pictures and no one telling me such but still pretty sure. I can say my conscious intent has rarely (not never) been to offend or to make uncomfortable, but still such may be felt without my intent to do so and I strongly suspect has. Actually was told once! A nurse interpreted me as shoving her as I went by quickly to a patient as all heck was breaking loose and complained. Was not my intent but she felt that way as her lived reality. Was it assault? I apologized.
Having your picture taken is one thing, having it used as propaganda with a made up story is something else. Doing the latter is being a creep.
Agreed again with iiandyiiii - blech.