First off remember that Judaism began as a tribal identity. With that came the whole megilla - religion, culture, laws, etc. This identity was forced to adapt to a world in which members of the tribe were dispersed and incompletely integrated into a variety of other cultures and migrating in between these cultures with some regularity. Is it a surprise that different segments of the population have glommed onto different aspects of that identity than have others?
As to the Orthodox’s veiw of those of us who are more secular or [shudder] even Reform. Well that’s religion for you. When you believe what you believe the other guy has gotta be wrong. Me, I focus on the arguing with God part, and the fact that even our greatest prophet could not view God’s face but only that which he left behind. If I am working for tikkun olam then I’m okay by me and I gotta think that God has bigger fish to fry than whether or not I’m having a cheeseburger. If an Orthodox thinks I’m an apostate, so be it. We all gotta do what we gotta do.
Of course, but I said denying or shirking. Obviously, someone who doesn’t believe there’s a covenant at all would be denying. “Shirking” is more the sort who doesn’t have a firm belief that the tenets of Judaism are wrong, but merely doesn’t feel inclined to make changes in his life should he investigate more deeply and discover he DOES believe it…he avoids the possiblity by never taking the matter seriously at all.
Which is exactly why I asked. The number of Jews I’ve known personally in my life could be counted on one hand. And at that time I was more concerned with if they’d be able to make it to the park on Saturday to help field our team for pickup baseball games than questions like these.
WindFish, thanks for the link. That helps clear up a lot of what I was wondering from the religion side of it.
I should have known they wouldn’t be a cut-and-dried answer to this, but hoped to clear some of it up. Thanks everyone.
Atheist, raised Jewish, checking in. I certainly have an ethnicity. To begin with, I’m part Irish (that’s the non-Jewish side of the family). I’ve got bits of Russian and OtherEasternEuropean in me. I’m American. I’m caucasian. Is that ethnicity enough?
Ninja, unless you hail from the Caucaus mountains caucasian really isn’t an ethnicity. Nor is American. American is a cultural identity to be sure, but not an ethnicity. Do you identify with others of Russian heritage as being of your people? Very few Jews from Russia would, what with your ancestors having mainly been confined to the Pale of Settlement. Nothing wrong with not really having an ethnic identity, you don’t have to belong to a group or have a label of blank-American attached to you, but if you you were raised Jewish, then atheist or not, you have very likely been permeated with the culture. And nothing wrong with having multiple ethnicities either.
Is ‘black’ an ethnicity? Is Irish? I’ve heard, very frequently, those referred to as ethnicities. Why should ‘white’ be different?
I’m not quite sure I understand what you mean by ‘permeated with the culture’. Do you mean that certain rituals, etc, are habitual after being raised thusly? (That’s not the case for me, but I’m not arguing the point - I just don’t get what you mean).
Truth be told I’m not quite sure what qualifies as “ethnicity” but White aint it. White is a hodgepodge of so many different groups with so little in common that no definition of ethnicity would include it in toto. Ethnicity as a term is used to differentiate one group from the rest. Irish American, yeah, Irish living in Ireland, nah. Black, I’m not so sure, maybe.
Jewish as ethnicity? I don’t know. But as a cultural influence on someone who was raised Jewish in a Jewish home even if they converted out or just do not believe? Unavoidable. Certain cultural influences are hard to avoid if you are raised in a household, not rituals, but habits of thought and sensibilities of humor, shared frames of reference and understanding of certain allusions. I may no longer have the same sense my father had of mishpocha with Jewish immigrants from where ever they hailed, but I understand the sense and I suspect you do as well. If something is being done in a different than typical way and someone chimes “Ma nish tana?” I’ll smile and you, I suspect, would understand why I’d smile even if you would not smile yourself. Atheist or agnostic or theist, these are cultural references.
This is a late response to an earlier objection, but just to echo Chaim-
Dani (Noone special), I was definitely not saying that you are any less of a Jew than me or anyone else. I believe that a born Jew is a Jew no matter what. I was just saying that you’re less of an OBSERVANT Jew-- something I don’t think you’d dispute. And that in the eyes of Orthodoxy, being observant is part of Jewish responsibility. Bt atheist, agnostic, observant, or converted to Hinduism, you’d still be 100%, 24 Karat Jewish.
Indeed. But I think that cultural identity is a lot more ‘flexible’ than most people assume. Examples:
I grew up in a town which has a huge Jewish population. Judaism was still a minority, but a huge one. In high school, I was in all the same classes as a group of about 15 students. Of them, five or six (depending on whether or not you count me) were Jewish. This isn’t a particularly skewed sample set: the town is about 30% Jewish. We had off school for Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, often we’d get a half-day the day of the first seder, our cafeteria served matzah-sandwiches for lunch during passover, etc. As a result of this, most people from that town know a good deal about Jewish traditions, understand the celebrations, etc. Many of my non-Jewish friends are, in terms of understanding these things, “more jewish” than I am. They know a lot more about it, they understand more about it, but they aren’t Jewish.
My mother’s family is catholic - almost all of them are still practicing. We visit over Christmas every year. I grew up going to Christmas Eve mass and looking forward to presents under the tree every year. That’s as much a part of me as growing up lighting a menorah and eating latkes is. I’d even wager that going to mass once a year makes me far more ‘observant’ than many people who were raised catholic, even if I don’t believe in any of it. Does this make me part “culturally catholic”?
I think that ‘culture’ is highly a matter of choice. Yes, you’re raised a certain way and therefore, have certain influences. In my case, I got a ‘dose’ of both Judaism and Catholicism. Culturally, though, I don’t identify as either of these. It’s entirely possibly I’m ignoring an important variable, though: In neither Judaism nor Catholicism have I ever felt ‘accepted’ as part of that group. For one reason or another, I was always slightly ‘different’. This could be a bigger factor than I at first assumed, I guess.
I guess “ethnicity” is open to further definition. As Merriam-Webster has it, “ethnic” means:
“of or relating to large groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background.”
That pretty much covers all definitions you might have, though I think it’s a bit broad. Interestingly enough, anoher given defition is “heathen.” Odd.
Could someone with Oxford English Dictionary access give a more detailed definition?
Religious Jews are adherents of religion & culture which sees itself as an ethnicity. And perhaps it sees itself as a race. Not that there’s a serious genotypic difference between Jews & the rest of the human race in reality.
Culturally traditional Jews are not always so religious, but have a cultural heritage, & an ethnicity in a cultural sense.
Then there are those of Jewish descent who see themselves as Jewish, without really buying into the religion or the traditional culture.
I guess I should mention those for whom a self-described “Jewish” faith is religious & philosophical, but not culturally conservative.
And of course, there are those of us descended from Jews, but well & truly disassociated from it, who would be considered mixed-race if Jewishness had an actual biological basis.
So I would say there’s Jewish culture; a Jewish religion; and especially a Jewish ethnicity, though primarily in a cultural sense, rather than as a p.c. way to say “race.” Since Judaism is transmitted as a culture & religion, with the children of Jews assimilating into Gentile communities, & Gentiles converting to Judaism, the “Jewish race” is kind of a myth, even if it is a myth believed & given importance by many Jews themselves.
“Religious Jews are adherents of a religion & culture which sees itself as an ethnicity.”
cmkeller explained this pretty well. But as someone raised Christian, maybe I can put it into Christian terms for you.
Christians see religion as individual, because membership the Christian religion is individualistic. “My mother & my brothers are those who love me & keep my commandments,” etc.
Jews see their religion as about building a culture–a nation, really. Children are born into it, & trained in it, in these terms. So the construction & maintenance of a Jewish culture–which embraces civil, ethnic, & secular realities–is a sort of sacrament (they might say mitzvah, or obligation) to a Jew. At least to some Jews: those for whom the ethnicity has a religious significance.
So it’s a sort of religion of a national identity. It is different from nationalisms that claim an exclusive membership derived from a distant past (e.g., Aryan supremacy, certain indigenous American identities). Not all Jews are descended from those in Moses’s company of refugees, & few are even mostly descended from that group in a genetic sense. But, for those for whom the ethnicity has that religious significance, the fact that your ancestors were once Jews may confer (in their minds) an obligation to the covenant that someone entirely descended from Gentiles would not have. Your obligation is a continuation of your ancestors’ promise. It’s a particular definition of divine covenant, & if it seems strange to Christian ears, that’s because so much Christian theology is defined in direct repudiation of that definition.