Is junk food actually cheaper than healthy food?

You’ve lived your experience of it. It’s quite obvious that the experience is different for different individuals.

But when you’re at the grocery store and you’ve got $20 to spend for the whole week, $3 worth of rice or ramen will go a LOT farther than $3 worth of broccoli. And if it takes you $1.50 in bus money to get back and forth to the grocery store, or you get that one ride a month to schlep groceries in, you have to buy food that won’t go bad in a few days. So your pantry is gonna be pretty carb heavy.

I’m sure there’s a psychological aspect to it as well. When you’re broke, food is a subject fraught with anxiety. When you’re flush, it’s the first area you’re likely to “overspend” in. When I’m flush, food almost equals entertainment; it’s a luxury item that I can indulge. When I’m broke it’s a reminder of how broke I am. And the further psychological issues are that after you’ve worked all day at a minimum wage job, with other people who are probably demoralized by their lot, you’re probably more likely to be morally, emotionally, and physically exhausted by the time you get home, and a side trip to the organic market for fresh vegetables just presents a bit more of an obstacle. Money can’t buy happiness, but it can sure help relieve some stress. Again, more individual experiences; it’s ungenerous of you, Duckster, to dismiss the entire low-income population as lazy and self-indulgent just because you, as an individual, respond differently, psychologically, to such personal economic challenges. I daresay you’re in the minority, if you’re cheered up and energized for kitchen theatrics by poverty.

Besides, it’s inarguable that organic health foods are more expensive than bulk generics. And many things do cost a lot more when you’re poor. For example, if you never quite have $54 dollars all together in one place, you can’t buy a bus pass. Then you have to pay $1.50 for every ride. Besides, you may think, maybe I won’t need $54 worth of bus money this month. This means, for one thing, that every single bus ride to the grocery store has a surcharge on it, and one more obstacle to overcome. It also means that, in all likelihood, by the end of the month you probably have, in fact, spent more than $54 on bus rides that month. The same economics of scale works in your grocery bills. It’s cheaper to by some foods in bulk, but you may never have bulk cash, and you have to buy things in smaller–and more expensive–quantities. And think of a McDonald’s meal. To make a hamburger at home you’d have to spend more than $4 or $5; ground beef, buns, ketchup, mustard, cheese, etc. Sure, you will then have the makings for more than one meal, but when you’re poor a burger in the hand is worth two in the fridge: if you only have $5 to eat with today, you’ll get a more satisfying meal, now, at McDonald’s, than if you girded your loins with Ducksterian discipline and industry and spent that $5 on brown rice and kale.

THis is pretty irrelevant. What did people do before air conditioning? Or crack cocaine? The problem is a phenomenon of the modern world, and pining for Little House on the Prairie-world is, well, irrelevant.

But yeah, if poor people got off their asses and went out and plowed the field and planted the wheat and ground it into flour to make their bread, those asses would probably be smaller.

High complex carb meals like this aren’t what most dieticians and nutitionists would consider “healthy.” If you won’t admit that you can get a lot more pasta or rice for $.99 than you can fresh fruit and vegetables, then this conversation will never get legs. If on the other hand you are simply mistaken about what is 'healthy," well that can be remedied. That you haven’t gotten fat is indicative of nothing other than your metabolism. Were I to eat “lots” of rice and past I’d be huge. You need to take a course on nutrition before examinig the impact of socio-economic status on health.

The critical trifecta for the fat poor is – ignorance, shortage of time, inability to manage time. For some, laziness is certainly also a factor – one of many.

which would get you an apple, so it proves the point, junk food is cheaper than helathy food

LOL! Thank you, Lissener! You said it so much better than I did.

I doubt even that people during the 50s and 60s ate as much junk food as they do now. A lot of people now just don’t know how to cook, or prepare easy and fast meals, or don’t want to take the time to do so, but if they did, I think they would save money.

For example - take the time to make a few ham and cheese sandwiches, rap them in saran wrap, and then you can take them with you and eat them on the go. This is a lot cheaper than getting McDonalds. If you buy a huge bag of chips at the store, divide it up into smaller bags and that way you can have a serving of chips with every sandwich - buying the tiny Lays bags individually is a huge rip-off compared to doing this.

This isn’t the healthiest meal but it’s still better for you than McDonalds.

I realize that people have fast-moving lives and don’t always have time to stop and cook food, but setting aside some snacks and meals in advance (at night, or whenever) is a good idea. Just plan ahead and you will spend less money.

The above, by the way, is not arguing with Lissener’s points though.

no, it’s simply a cheaper way to eat poorly – processed meet and cheese, bread, chips

So what are you saying? That rice, pasta and flour are “abd” for me and I should stop eating them?

I never disputed that. Hence my first question: I would still eat pasta and rice even if thewere more expensive, because as I understand, typical meals ARE composed mostly of startches and carbs and have been since the beginning of time. You seem to be of reasonably means, have you eliminate starch completely from your diet? Do you only eat wild game meats and freshly foraged vegetables? :confused:

Go ahead. Explain to me how flour, rice, and pasta is “unhealthy” despite the fact that my family has lived on them (well, rice) for generations.

And my family’s metabolism and that of virtually all the Chinese immigrants amongst my social circle, I’m sure.

Why would you do that? Surely you must realize that “lots” of rice and pasta is more expensive than “enough rice and pasta to keep yourself fed”?

That wasn’t my question. My question was “where the hell are all these poor fat people finding their cheap big macs when I, a poor person, can’t seem to find any?”

So far, the answer that you and the others have provided is that it has nothing to do with the price of food, it’s just that poor people are often ignorant, lazy, and make poor decisions. Is this so?

Fast food isn’t cheaper than homemade food. It is, however, much cheaper than any ready-to-eat healthy food out there.

Poor people often don’t have ready access to supermarkets. This is particularly true for residents of urban housing projects. The only stores nearby are likely to be “convenience” stores which are overpriced and offer little or no fresh produce.

Also, poor people often have even less free time than the middle class (because of multiple jobs, long commutes, etc), making speed and convenience particularly important to them.

When you’ve just got off from a 3PM-9PM supermarket bagging shift after your regular 5AM-2PM janitorial job, going home and spending an hour putting together sauteed vegetables with rice is a lot less attractive than grabbing a McBurger.

Poor families who eat healthy tend to have someone (usually a grandmother or another older woman) who isn’t working full-time and can devote hours to shopping and cooking.

Also see lissener’s post.

JRB

And part of the equation reg. grocery stores is availability of different foods in your neighborhood stores depending on who they cater to.

As a case in point, in my neighborhood, there are two “types” of grocery stores: one very barrio catering to recent immigrants and minimum-wage workers and one more “mainstream”. If that does not appeal to you and want more variety and upscale, you need to drive 20-30 minutes one way to a store that caters to more upscale middle & upper middle class clientelle. Therefore, region wise, I got three choices.

Store 1- “Barrio” store (not a small store, but a regional chain).
Store 2 - “Mainstream” store
Store 3- “Upscale”

Let’s use two items that are considered “healthy”: soy milk and bean sprouts.

Store 1 - Soy Milk? Bean Sprouts? Never heard of them. There are some products for lactose intolerant persons, but between a $2.50 liter and a $1.80 2% fat l. of milk. Oh. Yes. Ramen noodles packets going for $1 for 10. Can’t beat that deal. :smiley:

Store 2 - There may be Soy Milk available. But. Again. Between $2.50 liter vs a $1.80 2% fat l. of milk. Bean sprouts may be available. When they are available, though, its usually a very small box at $3.00.

Store 3 - Again. Soy milk at same price choices. Bean sprouts can be bought at bulk. The added cost is of course travel. Most of the people that live near Store 1 who are working class folks can walk to it or just a 5 minute drive. Store 3 is 40 min. round trip plus gas.

Caveat: No. This does not excuse people from not buying the mainstreams vegetables available in the three stores.

When this conversation comes up, I always think that people are getting their wires crossed about what “healthy” food is. A lot of people seem to interpret “healthy” as meaning “organic,” which seems like a pretty silly definition. The whole organic thing is out of hand right now, and the label means basically nothing–plenty of organic food is full of pesticides and shipped in from China, just like things not labelled organic.

My question is this: I understand that when one has a very limited budget, rice and ramen are the way to go for the bulk of the food. But aren’t frozen and canned vegetables awfully cheap, too? There are plenty of unsauced, unbuttered, unsalted versions of those, and they don’t cost more than the kind with sauce. And aren’t eggs relatively cheap? They keep a long time too. Rice, vegetables, and eggs would make a pretty healthy diet, in the right proportions. Cheap too. And as for “filling”–the vegetables provide a lot of fiber that definitely adds to the staying power of the meal. If I eat just rice, I start feeling hungry again very soon…

None of the above has anything to do with the time/materials/education issue. I just want to point out that “healthy” doesn’t equal “organic” and that vegetables do have a nonzero hunger-fighting value.

No, the answer is that the time and energy needed to acquire and prepare food should be considered as much a part of its cost as the money charged for it. If the nearest grocery store is a two-hour round trip away, and you’re putting in 12-hour days, then a Big Mac combo may very well make better sense than preparing your own meals with fresh ingredients from scratch.

If the majority of your meal consists of white rice and processed flours, then it is a diet that would be bad for me and most Americans

Yes :rolleyes:

Perhaps, maybe, just perhaps there is something genetic at play in the common metabolisms of the various racial and ethnic groups that will make one group more tolerable to particular types of food. I am not Chinese. Most Americans and Canadians are not Chinese. My default presumption of the North American poor isn’t the Chinese.

see above

If I ate rice or pasta, even in small amounts, everyday, I would gain weight – white rice and processed flour particularily. Moreover, the blood sugar imbalance caused by eating more than say 30 to 40 grams of carbs a day would make me much more hungry, much more often.

a McDonald’s hamburger is $.79, a Big Mac is $2.05 – the cheap Big Macs are at McDonalds, don;t get taken in by the expensive ones at Mortons

You’e right. We’ve said it has nothing to do with the price of (healthy) food other than the price (healthy) of food. I think you need some protein, you’re not thinking clearly.

Thanks Sattua, that was what I was going to post as well. Do you guys think that my current diet is “unhealthy”? I don’t think so, my family and friends eat in a similar fashion and all are reasonably healthy.

Just to recap, my current diets does derive most of it’s calories from things like instant noodles, rice, and pasta, but again I had no idea these were “unhealthy”. Of course I always eat in moderation, and my meals will have a good amount of veggies and protein too. I.E. Lunch for me may be instant noodles, but I always dump a pile of frozen veggies ($1.69/kg) and an egg in there too, together with some clearance rye or generic French thick crust bread($0.99/loaf at most) margarine and either jam or honey. It seems like a pretty nutritious and filling meal to me.

See my last post on labour and opportunity costs.

But you’re assuming the upscale store is only a 40 minute round trip. If you don’t have a car, it’s a lot longer. Put a two-and-a-half hour shopping trip on top of a 12-hour work day, as well as the time needed to fix and clean up after a meal, and you’ve got a daunting task ahead of you. You’re also assuming that everybody has the facilities to store and prepare food. I once lived in a run-down rooming house where the landlady removed the stove and refrigerator because she was tired of tenants fighting over them. After I finished my full time day job as a security guard and my evening job as a janitor, my dinner might consist of a can of Vienna sausages, some crackers and a pint of milk that I picked up at a convenience store on the way home from work.

When I moved last year, while I had a good job, it took me almost a thousand dollars to fully outfit my new kitchen. (My previous living situation had been as a roommate; not my kitchen. I had a shelf.) By the time I was done, I could stop at the store on the way home and buy a veg or two, some fish, some fruit, and take it home and make a fully rounded meal. I had a case of coconut milk, three different kinds of curry, 4 or 5 different kinds of dried mushrooms, fridge drawers full of potatos and onions, a fully stocked spice rack, 9 kinds of noodles, 5 kinds of rice, 4 or 5 kinds of flour, 5 or 6 kinds of vinegar, even more kinds of oils, always carrots or burdock or turnips on hand, always garlic and ginger handy, tubes of anchovies and lemon grass, fresh basil, yadda frickin yadda. I could bring home one or two fresh ingredients and prepare, around them, a fully rounded, culinarily exciting meal. Then I was out of work for almost a year. My supplies dwindled. My freezer had been full of individually frozen portions of beef, pork, chicken, shrimp, and fish. Dwindled. First the brown rice ran out, then the pearl rice, then the red rice, then the regular rice. Then, the french lentils, then the adzuki beans. More yadda. Anyway, eventually I was down to a 10# bag of basmati rice and a 20# bag of black beans. I’d buy bacon trimmings for the beans, $4 for 5 pounds, to make the beans palatable (and fattening), and maybe some carrots and onions to add to the mix.

But subsisting on such a poverty diet–rice and black beans (interesting fact: refried black beans are the only food that look exactly the same coming out and going in. Some days I had to pause and ask myself, Wait, are these before or after? Have I already eaten these? I needed a reversible magnet, like the “dirty/clean” one on my dishwasher: “beans/shit”.) can be pretty depressing. So if I ever did get a windfall–sell a few CDs, get a $20 in the mail from my sister–do you think I’m more likely to spend that windfall on brown rice and kale, or am I maybe gonna buy myself something momentarily undepressing, like order a pizza or something?

There’s simply no question that I, personally, as an individual, eat much healthier when “money is no object,” and I have the freedom to eat whatever I want whenever I want. And while I’m not the universal standard, I’m sure I’m not entirely unique, either.

As I said, it’s complex, and it’s individual. I try not to impose my experience on others, and I would hope that those of you whose experiences are not reflections of the “norm” would refrain from that as well.

Confusion: If you can be poor and fat (meaning nutrition is readily available), then exactly what are you ‘poor’ of. What don’t you have? Healthcare? DVD players? $42,000 SUVs?

My problem is that there is some begging the question going on in this dicussion. Where is the controlled ‘poor’ group? Just who the heck are we talking about?

Are we focusing on certain enthic groups that we just label poor and then make general observations, decalre them poor and fat, only to conclude it is because they shop at liquor stores and McDonalds for all their dietary needs?

This thread is not in the spirit of GQ.

whoel bean, I find it very difficult to believe I and my sample population has not become obese because of some racial advantage, as there are plenty of very obese Chinese people in China who eat North American style diets. Of course, in China, eating a North American style diet is very, very expensive and something only the rich can afford. None-the-less if that is your contention then I would be interested to see some more evidence. It would be rather embarassing to start trumpeting my alleged racial superiority at the office here if it turned out not to be true.

Is this something that applies to the majority of the population? I’m not doubting that it might be the case for you, but again, that is my question: Is the complete elimination of rice, pasta and flour from one’s diet a sound thing to do for MOST people? In my experience it is not, but perhaps you have more information.

I have to admit there might be a bit of regional variation here. I’m not sure if I can work out the equivilant price across currencies and Consumer Price Indexes, but as far as I can tell, in Canada, even a single Big Mac is far more expensive than a meal of steamed rice, vegetables and eggs. Is fast food then substantially cheaper in the US than Canada? I have also heard, here and elsewhere, that serving sizes are bigger in the US. I haven’t noticed this in my various trips there, and I did live in the US for a few years, but if true then it must also play a role.

Perhaps I should take everyone’s advice and move down south?

Location, location, location. I have to do all my shopping on the bus. So I rarely buy eggs, for example. I also never buy cans. And I rarely buy frozen. All these things suck on long bus rides. When you schlep everything on the bus, you tend to–I tend to–buy only what I need now, today, in relatively small quantities. And although I’m a an obsessive cook, it’s way harder (and more expensive, now, today) to carry home all the ingredients for a healthy meal than it is to buy a smaller amount of pre-prepared food.

The bottom line is that–for me, anecdotally–it is absolutely inarguably true that I eat way healthier when I have money than when I don’t. I can’t be the only person for whom this is true.