Is Kwanzaa Racist?

[beergeek279]

I’m always happy to see a low opinion confirmed. I thought this twit was a johny one note, an idjit and a crank from the Great Debates. Now I see its true.

I don’t even know why I’m bothering to do this, considering the Charley Reese thread shows quite well what people around here truly think and how new ideas are tolerated.

Well, seeing as I’m not here to win Miss Congeniality, certainly your opinion only validates that which I say. However, I thought that rationality was so critical here and you’ve descended into the * ad hominem * ranks just as I’ve predicted, and not all too originally I may add. Is this how you handle all dissent against your leftist beliefs???

As (1) Af. action benefits white women and (2) as presently constructed simply requires you not to discriminate against an equally qualified ‘minority’ its hard to see this in any rational terms as anti-white. Maybe anti-bigot, but not anti-white. I’ve certainly never, ever had any actual problems, nor have I ever heard of non-bsing problems. It’s always third hand. Now, if af. action really were anti-white, I would expect some hard data showing demonstrable gains by minorities, while increased unemployment among white males. Since this data does not exist, I find it hard to credit there is in fact a problem.

So, the implication here is that I’m a bigot and that if it benefits any white person at all then I no longer oppose it? Well, perhaps anti-white was the incorrect way to phrase it…but affirmative action IS anti-merit and that’s the true reason I oppose it. If it’s merely non-discrimination, then what the fuck is the point of having it? If an employer hires a person because of criteria other than merit, then the more qualified candidate will more than likely go to a competing firm which is a disadvantage. Discrimination is not good economic sense…an example of the market’s power to level the field.

This happens to be off-topic so I think we should leave your misplaced obsessions out of this.

Perhaps it’s off-topic. However, I would be glad to open another thread and debate the issue if you would care to.

Thankfully public policy is smarter than you.

Hmm, given this is not what actual historical experience reflects, I daresay that government has every place doing so.

Can you please show me any constitutional justification for the government to do so? Surely, the 1st Amendment which the left supposedly holds so dear gives the right of free association (“the right of the people peaceably to assemble”) gives the right to associate with whom one sees fit? If you dislike a businesses policy on clientele, then by all means don’t patronize it, boycott it, present it to the media…governmental action is not needed!! Clearly, nobody is going to patronize the store that has a policy such as this, and they are either going to reverse it or go out of business!

But if you wish to reverse the right of free association, then perhaps it will reach up and bite you square in the ass. This right of free association also protects minority groups and their right to admit whoever they see fit. But if you wish to destroy this, then these groups will be forced to admit people they dislike as well who will surely be joining for the purpose of breaking down these groups and their purpose, and I surely do not wish to see that.

That double standard seems to exist only in your twisted and impoverished imagination.

Twisted and impoverished…more personal attacks. But a double standard surely exists for every lover of liberty and I’m sure that I don’t stand alone in noting said double standard. As an example, what has happened to Columbus Day? The PC brigade has all but pushed that out of existence!

Ah is this the same American culture that sanctioned slavery, Tom Crow and lynchings right up until the 1970s? If you’d like to look at the big picture, warts and all, you’d find something else.

First of all, that’s * JIM * Crow…who’s the stupid and ignorant one?

Perhaps there were some warts, but I still believe that TRUE freedom and liberty (which would not count if some were excluded) is the best possible system of government!

If you want to look at warts on the left, look at the millions slaughtered by Communist dictators in the 20th century (and Communism is the extreme left, is it not?).

Ahhh, this is a wonderful example of this idjits preconceptions: no one’s actually called me a racist but I expect it … drag in Jesse Jackson as a method of ad hominem attack… Fucking hypocrital argument if I ever saw one.

Well, you surely haven’t called me a racist but you’ve surely launched other forms of * ad hominem * attack against me…who’s the hypocrite?

No, imposition of your preconceptions, distortions of others words and generally sounding off like an irrational johnny one note makes you a crank. Wear it with honor as you like.

Preconceptions…of course I have beliefs, convictions and morals that I am going to bring into any given argument, so yes, I have preconceptions. Distortions…perhaps to some! Johnny one note…well, as you’ve noticed in my GD threads that you so condescendingly refer to that I do cover a variety of issues from the libertarian point of view, and if holding to your convictions in a consistent matter is repetitive then so be it. Irrational…I suppose I do get a little bit pissed off and tend to spurt a little bit, but well…that is certainly my problem to deal with.

I’m too stupid to understand rational arguments and care not a whit for facts. Winning me over requires illogical appeals to my emotions and preconceptions. I call my preconceptions “freedom and liberty” and am insensinate to rationale critiques.

I understand rational arguments very much, thank you and I care for facts…I just choose to dispute yours. I don’t care to be won over because I feel very strongly in what I believe…convictions I would die for, if necessary. However, most people are not going to be won by appeals to dry logic, but to those emotions which you feel the need to disparage. I DO call my preconceptions freedom and liberty and they were preconceived well before any of us were born, by great men who risked their livelihoods and lives so that they could be laughed at as “dead white guys” today…perhaps I have just a bit more respect for this country than you do…to try and make it the great nation it once was instead of keeping it the cesspool that it has become. I think you were looking for “rational” and not “rationale” and well…I’ve yet to see a logical critique from you!

Hostility…Perhaps? You reek it.

Well, I surely hope so…I wouldn’t want to be seen as placidly accepting anything, now would I? And yes…I am pissed off at what is happening to that which I believe and I would be a coward if what I say did not reflect that!

Hmm, care to reconcile your disdain for “a bunch of abstract numbers and intellectual tracts” and your assertion that “and appealing to the mind doesn’t win a person” with rationality? Perhaps you have your own personal definition?

I would be more than happy to. Is that which you hold most dear nothing but “rational”? Is there a mind-body dichotomy? I originally came to believe in libertarianism through rational thought after the betrayal of the “Republican revolution”. Libertarianism was the only political system that truly fit who I was…so of course it was a rational decision, but the moral outrage in my feelings was probably a much more pertinent determination in my decision. Not only do I think those ideas, I also FEEL those ideas within me. That passion is going to propel me over someone who believes what they believe for the mere utility of the matter, and quite frankly I have very little respect for that man or anyone who doesn’t believe passionately in that which they speak.
Do people really learn from a bunch of numbers and egghead manifestos or more often than not are they bored senseless by them? If you wish to preach your beliefs, then you first have to appeal to the heart so that the person will be interested enough that you can later appeal to the mind!
Is that sufficient enough for you?

Then again, this is not the proper forum for unbridled passion, so I apologize and will endeavor to be more logical and rational in the future.

Collounsbury, will you marry me?

Gee, since I started this whole little love affair, do I get an invite to the wedding?

Man, I bet you blow your nose right out onto the sidewalk, too!

No thank you, I have too much class to do so, thank you very much. And you call ME irrational?!?!?! This was completely non-topical and rather juvenile.

Kwanzaa is nice and everything. No one I know actually celebrates Kwanzaa, but don’t let me say that it doesn’t speak to me (as I’ve noted before) because some people will be quite upset by this.

Not too many people celebrate it but, if you are black, your supposed to want to celebrate it.

I may not find the tenets of Kwanzaa to my liking and I have every right to debate it, but certainly anyone who wishes to has every such right to, or doesn’t wish to celebrate a holiday has an equal right to. Certainly if the government ever tried to ban a holiday, regardless of my personal agreement with it I would fight against the banning of it.

I just get upset because of the idea that “all holidays are equal, but some are more equal than others”.

[Biggirl]

*Originally posted by RugbyMan *
I just get upset because of the idea that “all holidays are equal, but some are more equal than others”.
**

But the only person trying to make one holiday more equal than others is you RugbyMan.

It has been said, repeatedly, in this thread that there are celebrations for everybody and everything. You are the one who is singling out Kwanzaa and attaching all sort of misplaced anger on it. You have made it, and MLK Day and Black History Month, bigger than they actually are.

[beergeek279]

But the only person trying to make one holiday more equal than others is you RugbyMan.

It has been said, repeatedly, in this thread that there are celebrations for everybody and everything. You are the one who is singling out Kwanzaa and attaching all sort of misplaced anger on it. You have made it, and MLK Day and Black History Month, bigger than they actually are.

Well, I certainly have the right to my opinion as well does everyone else, and everyone else has the right to debate what anyone else says.

Perhaps I disagree with Kwanzaa…some of the people disagree with other holidays. If oldscratch hadn’t said

[QUOTE]
Kwanzaa scares me far less than European History Month celbration of White European Culture. Which we clebrate here in CA.

[QUOTE]

then perhaps I wouldn’t have been quite so fired up, but he did and I was.
Incidentally, my disagreement with Kwanzaa isn’t so much in the racial makeup of the holiday as with the collectivist underpinnings.

[Biggirl]

*Originally posted by RugbyMan *
Well, I certainly have the right to my opinion as well does everyone else, and everyone else has the right to debate what anyone else says.
**

As long as it is understood that this is your opinion and not some secret black underhanded trick being played on society, then fire away.

[beergeek279]

As long as it is understood that this is your opinion and not some secret black underhanded trick being played on society, then fire away.

It most certainly is not. You may note that regardless of whatever anyone has said about me, I haven’t asked for any censorship of it…I simply disagreed with it. However I certainly would not bring it up in every somewhat controversial post because well, it would be quite frankly boring for me to do so and I would truly become a “one trick pony”.

I suppose on this board, I have to accept given restrictions on speech (ie, no insults or excessive profanity outside the Pit) because I voluntarily agreed to the standards by which this board is run, and if I disagree I am free to leave at any time. Certainly if someone was banned for nothing but speech that drew the ire of a moderator, I would not approve of it as I’m sure many would not and I would make my feelings known, but there’s nothing else that could be done by me.

If you ask how can I say that and not be hypocritical, this message board is a voluntary, private entity while government certainly is not; there is no way to set up an alternative to government censorship. (That’s also why I above suggested free association and free market ways of dealing with any sort of discrimination, because I consider intrusive government the greatest of all evils).

[CrankyAsAnOldMan]

*Originally posted by RugbyMan *
**
I suppose that means all the Scots, Welsh, English, Spaniards, Portuguese, Italians, Swiss, Belgians, Dutch, Danish, Finnish, Sweedish, Nordic, Austrians, Czechs, Slovaks, Polish, Romanians, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Greeks, Yugoslavs, Croats, Bosnians, Slovenians, Albanians, Turks, Ukranians and Russians and their descendants are shit out of luck because they’re the “evil, oppressive, white Europeans”??? **

All I know is, you’ve never been to some of the small towns in my home state of Nebraska for their summer festivals. LOL

Seriously, do any of you know much about Kwanzaa? What it’s about? What the people who celebrate it ask of the rest of society in terms of recognizing it? (BTW, I can answer that last one easily enough: nil. Just like the Swedes in Gothernburg, NE, don’t ask the rest of the world to stop turning for their celebrations).

[system]

*Originally posted by RugbyMan *

I’m always happy to see a low opinion confirmed. I thought this twit was a johny one note, an idjit and a crank from the Great Debates. Now I see its true.

I don’t even know why I’m bothering to do this, considering the Charley Reese thread shows quite well what people around here truly think and how new ideas are tolerated.

If you think Charley Reese represents new ideas, then you need more help than anyone here can give.

Well, seeing as I’m not here to win Miss Congeniality, certainly your opinion only validates that which I say. However, I thought that rationality was so critical here and you’ve descended into the * ad hominem * ranks just as I’ve predicted, and not all too originally I may add. Is this how you handle all dissent against your leftist beliefs???

]

First, stop your whining. Your little martyr routine is just plain stupid. You come in here, act out like a rude little twelve year old seeking attention, trying to get insulted so you can build on your sad little mythology of the oppressed whatever.

(1) It’s your impoverished personality, not your beliefs tht I’m insulting. If I want a rational debate on political issues I’ll go seek out Freedom2. You’re just a crank, and a whinging one at that.

(2) I’m not a leftist so at try to get your insults right (or do you, like randlover, call everything not in your restricted political mythology “socialist” – if that is the case then I’m afraid you’re awash in a sea of “leftism.”

(3) Get a fucking life.

So, the implication here is that I’m a bigot and that if it benefits any white person at all then I no longer oppose it?

No, the implication was your attack was not based in reason nor in fact. I could care less if you oppose affirmative action or not. In fact, I’m not the greatest fan myself. However, fact free distortions are not a basis of rational discourse nor a way to treat the issue.

but affirmative action IS anti-merit and that’s the true reason I oppose it.

Good go to a thread relevant to the issue. Lots of things are anti-merit, including discrimination. Have fun.

If it’s merely non-discrimination, then what the fuck is the point of having it? If an employer hires a person because of criteria other than merit, then the more qualified candidate will more than likely go to a competing firm which is a disadvantage.

See history, deal with the facts, open thread in Great Debates, stop hijacking a Kwanzaa thread with your irrelevant ranting.

This happens to be off-topic so I think we should leave your misplaced obsessions out of this.

Perhaps it’s off-topic. However, I would be glad to open another thread and debate the issue if you would care to.

I’ve encountered you in one thread already, go open the thread, I’m not interested. I’ve already seen you’re not susceptible to rational discourse. Stay on the fucking topic or take your personality problems elsewhere. Asshole.

Can you please show me any constitutional justification for the government to do so?

Go to Great Debates, have a chat with Dyoung and company.

That double standard seems to exist only in your twisted and impoverished imagination.

Twisted and impoverished…more personal attacks. But a double standard surely exists for every lover of liberty and I’m sure that I don’t stand alone in noting said double standard. As an example, what has happened to Columbus Day? The PC brigade has all but pushed that out of existence!

What the fuck are you talking about?
(1) Personal attacks on your personality, not your beliefs. If someone, like the OP wants to rationaly chat about Kwanzaa, they will not get insulted. If someone comes in acting like an asshole, being rude and trying to hijack the thread to spout off about their personal obsessions, like that person does in every other fucking thread they participate in, then I feel free to address the problem your fucking personality problems not your beliefs, thank you very much. Take some time to reflect on this, not your beliefs, you as a person.

(2) You assert a priori that there is a double standard. I fail to see any evidence of one. Never had anyone stop me from buying Kwanzaa stuff, for a girlfriend, nor say anything at all. Of course if might just be that I don’t have a warped and distorted personality which causes me to act like an asshole and a whinging johnny one note.

There’s no “liberty” issue here: only your personal issues apparrently with minorities or what not, which you have confused with liberty and what not.

(3) Columbus day. So, some complained about it, notably native americans. They got legit gripes, so they aired them. Free speech and free association, you did say that’s what you’re all about, didn’t you? I have not seen a huge fall off in Columbus day, but if there has been its been because of the free marketplace of ideas, the amerind complaints hit home perhaps. Whatever, I never thought of Columbus day as a particularly important issue myself, strikes me as your fishing.

Ah is this the same American culture that sanctioned slavery, Tom Crow and lynchings right up until the 1970s? If you’d like to look at the big picture, warts and all, you’d find something else.

First of all, that’s * JIM * Crow…who’s the stupid and ignorant one?

Did I write Tom Crow? Ah well, slip of the fingers, Tom I must have been thinking of you. Sorry about that.

Perhaps there were some warts, but I still believe that TRUE freedom and liberty (which would not count if some were excluded) is the best possible system of government!

Yeah yeah, whatever, take it to the relevant thread. I’m snipping your ranting about communists and so forth, its really irrelevant to me.

Ahhh, this is a wonderful example of this idjits preconceptions: no one’s actually called me a racist but I expect it … drag in Jesse Jackson as a method of ad hominem attack… Fucking hypocrital argument if I ever saw one.

Well, you surely haven’t called me a racist but you’ve surely launched other forms of * ad hominem * attack against me…who’s the hypocrite?

You, my problem is with your personality and your ** behaviour ** not your politics – disagree with those two but that’s not the issue here. As you note you have a whole bunch of GD threads dedicated to your rantings, stop trying to impose them here.

I understand rational arguments very much, thank you and I care for facts…

I have yet to see evidence of that.

I just choose to dispute yours. I don’t care to be won over because I feel very strongly in what I believe…

Ah yes, I care for facts, but only my facts. Anyone else care to point out the contradiction between this statement and caring for facts, rational arguments.

Let me put it to you this way, asshole, that’s not the hallmark of rational argument.

I’ve yet to see a logical critique from you!

Really? Then you have not paid very much attention.

So, please fuck off and go back to your regularly scheduled obsessions. And think about getting some meds.

[SterlingNorth]

If you want a rough idea as to how widely celebrated Kwanzaa is, you should check out today’s (17 Dec 2000) “The Boondocks” strip on the Washington Post’s comics page.
[sub]NOTE: (IT PROBABLY WON’T BE UP UNTIL MID-MORNING)[/sub]