Is Libertarianism A Form Of Conservativism?

Politics & Elections
21

I know a couple of self proclaimed libertarians. They are both extremely inconsistent in that they favor the government programs that they personally benefit from, but not others. And they are both sufficiently well off that they are able to pay user fees for any other - so they don’t see any reason everyone does not do the same.

I have never encountered a proclaimed libertarian who espoused a philosophy I considered internally consistent, scaleable, other than self-centered, or worthy of respect.

22

During my Libertarian phase, I contacted headquarters to ask about Libertarian policy on grazing rights, open range and western water rights. When they got back to me, the answer was “these are local issues”.

23

Based on your post I HIGHLY recommend you pick up a copy of Jonathan Haidt’s The Righteous Mind. He breaks down the moral differences between liberals and conservatives across 5 (I think he added a sixth) spectrums - Care, Fairness, Loyalty, Authority, Sanctity. Don’t have time to detail, but you can get a sense by googling moral foundations theory.

24

An old article on the subject, but a good one.

Among other things, the author speculates that both philosophies draw people with a predisposition to a contrarian mindset……which seems to me a very nice way of saying that both philosophies are attractive to assholes.

25

Well, you can see how libertarianism and racism might both have appeal for people who are deficient in empathy.

26

Big L libertarian, or little l libertarian? There’s the official party positions (big L), then there are individuals, and if you put a bunch of libertarians in a room, there’s only going to be one true libertarian (“me”, because all of your others have too many non-libertarian ideas).

Me? I’m libertarian, and in no way right wing. Everything attributed to libertarians above? Not me, sorry.

27

I’m registered as Libertarian, because some of the ideals (not the practice in terms of those seeking election) are not entirely without merit for a social liberal and fiscal conservative. But yes, those seeking political power under the Libertarian banner have almost always been the worst “I’ve got mine, nothing for you.” sorts.

I’m still registered that way, since it results in about 80-90% less political junk mail / texts / calls, and in my state, I get ballots for both R/D and can pick and choose which I submit. But due to the… quality… of R candidates recently, 90% of my national votes in the last 20 years have been D, and about 80% of the regional. And, that percentage is going to keep increasing unless more Republicans grow up and make serious and good faith repudiations of Trump and his actions.

The absolute (previous and current) obsession with the Religious Right, and now the Q-Crazies have probably fatally wounded the R party for the majority of the former moderate or swing voters. But since crazies vote as well…

28

I think that Conservatism is an inherent view of the world that the social order is pretty good and should be preserved. It is a reverence to the great institutions of modern life – business, religious, and government.

Should anything need to be changed, it should be done in small, carefully considered steps so as not to damage what we already have. Large, drastic changes are to be avoided because the consequences may disrupt the social order.

Many people think that the issues a Conservative supports defines Conservatism, but they cannot be more wrong. Conservatives support these issues because of their Conservative view of the world.

Radicals want to make big changes and take great chances in changing the social order. Whether these radicals are on the left or the right or somewhere else, they are still radicals and anti-Conservative. The goal of radicals is to tear down what we have and build something else to replace it with the notion that the world is so evil whatever they come up with to replace the social order has got to be far better than what we have. This is rightly seen by Conservatives as being very dangerous to the world order.

Progressivism, Communism/Socialism/Marcism, and Trumpism are all radical. There is nothing Conservative about any of these.

Initially, Capitalism was very radical because it threatened to shake the social order and it did just that. Instead of advancing to the upper echelons based on your family connections, it became more and more possible to advance because of your ideas and hard work. Over time, Conservatism has seen more and more the advantages of Capitalism and have somewhat taken it in, but with some reservations. You might say that Conservatives often favor Capitalism as long as it is under their control.

Classical Liberalism is based on Capitalism beyond what Conservatives feel comfortable with largely because Classical Liberals see greater value in Capitalism and want to extend it beyond what most Conservatives would be comfortable with doing. In general, though, I think that Classical Liberalism and Conservatism are fairly compatible with each other. It would be great if Conservatives would be more receptive to Classical Liberalism.

I often describe Libertarianism as “Classical Liberalism taken to extremes”. It is more radical, I think, than Classical Liberalism itself, but at least Classical Liberalism is generally at the heart of Libertarianism.

Note, however, that there are some factions of Libertarianism that concentrates more on the freedom expressed by Libertarianism rather than the Classical Liberalism at the heart of Libertarianism.

Anyway, Libertarianism is not Conservatism, but they do intersect in some ways.

So that’s my opinion of how they are related.

29

You don’t need government in order to have a currency.

Libertarianism and modern conservatism overlap a bit on the dislike of an expansive all powerful state.

30

These debates are always crippled by the lack of any clear definition of the concepts - and an even more pronounced lack of clear consensus amongst those who would say they are conservative or libertarian.

I’m reminded of an occasion many years ago where someone on the SDMB asked Christians to describe their deity - there were as many different answers as there were Christians who replied. Even amongst people who supposedly all follow the same religion and worship the same thing.

This is the theory but is it reflective of reality? Often conservatives are quite fiercely trying to change the social order - for example no one under the age of about 60 experienced sexual life without reliable contraception and Roe vs Wade but many conservatives campaign against readily available contraception and abortion. The change they want tends to be towards a real or imagined past, which they believe to have been better.

Conservatives tend to be against religion (however institutional) that is not their religion.

They also tend to be against change even in small steps - which they portray as unavoidably leading to the slippery slope of major change.

Further, your characterisation of “progressives” as radicals is odd, given that you define radicals as those that want to “tear down what we have and build something else to replace it with the notion that the world is so evil whatever they come up with to replace the social order has got to be far better than what we have”.

The clue to what progressives want is in the name.

31

Real Conservatives are trying to keep the radicals from changing the social order. Fake Conservatives like Trump and his cult are trying to change it, though.

That’s not to say that real Conservatives want to keep changes that haven’t worked out so well.

I think that I said that if change is necessary then the change should be made in small steps. If not, then I should have been clearer. Changes that are unnecessary should be opposed completely.

As for progressivism, it is entirely about change to the social order. Big changes. Progressives certainly don’t want to maintain the old social order.

32

I don’t think that refutes @billy-jack’s claim. I think those are examples of conservatives explaining What’s Wrong With the World Today to ill-considered change, even if that change happened a while back.

33

Modern conservatives are buddying up to Orban and Erdogan, and were buddying up to Putin until recently. The idea that the anti-abortion, tell gays what to do in the bedroom, pro-military, police-worshipping, dictator-loving modern conservatives dislike an expansive all-powerful state is laughable.

To the OP, there’s no way that small-l libertarians is a form of small-c conservatism, since libertarians want pretty radical changes to government, laws, and so on, and conservatives are supposedly opposed to radical change.

Modern “Libertarians” like Rand Paul and Ron Paul, overlap tremendously with “Conservatives.”

34

In the absence of a government, I can print my own. Mine could look different from the kind that’s in your pockets, and seek a value determined by those inclined to make use of it, but mine could also look identical to what you’re carrying, since in the absence of a government, I can choose to view that as my personal liberty, and I always did like those wavy lines you’ve got on those faces. In the absense of a government, none of these currencies has the weight of institutional guarantee behind them, and even the ones that promise “This note can be reimbursed for 8 lbs of lean beef, 20 lbs of brown rice, and 16 lbs of potatoes or equivalent as agreed upon mutually by bearer and issuer, and can be redeemed at any time at Gathway Gates estate” or some such thing will not, in the absence of a government, be enforceable. What you’d anticipate would be that Gathway Gates estate’s clout and armada of tough employees emerge as a government, with rules and rule enforcement and processes and policies and judges. And taxes.

35

Yeah, “opposing change” gets really murky in reality, because the arc of history does not in fact bend in one direction. It moves in all sorts of different directions often at the same time. Extreme reactionaries are frequently fixated on restoring a traditional world that never actually existed, but the trap of characterizing certain things in society as traditional and others as new is inherently going to fall victim to bias. I think this is true regardless of where you are on the political spectrum (and sometimes causes the mutual incomprehension between people of different ideologies).

36

And there are total of six “Real Conservatives” on the planet – all the rest are Fake.

Reminds me of the “communist” kids in university who insisted that the abuses of the USSR, China, Cuba, and every other country where the government called itself communist, was actually Fake Communism and if Real Communism was ever implemented in a country, that country would become a utopia.

In reality, people don’t start with a political philosophy and then decide what parts of society they like and dislike based on that. They start with the parts of society they like and dislike and pick a political philosophy that justifies that selection. The reason why “conservative” and “libertarian” seem to converge is that their subscribers start out with a mostly overlapping set of likes and dislikes.

Yeah, funny how the military and police are not counted as part of the government for “small government” conservatives. Especially since, to the framers of the constitution, the primary form of government abuse was “siccing the military on the people”, and certainly not “providing so much health care that the people became dependent”.

37

Well, that’s an unfortunate side effect of attempting to map a multi-dimensional political space onto a line and trying to shoehorn every individual onto said line.

38

I mean, when all those individuals vote the same way, what difference does it make? They back the same party.

39

It makes a huge difference. You wouldn’t say that Manchin and AOC are ideological dopplegangers based upon party affiliation would you?

40

Well they clearly don’t vote the same way, now do they? Or we would have voting rights legislation and BBB passed.

You undercut your own point.