Since Skald is no longer amongst us, I will petition Athena to send the flying monkeys after you on his behalf.
That was not in the books.
:rolleyes:
What have you bastards done with Skald?
His signature is now
His choice, not ours. 
Did he ever post an explanation of why he left, or just that cryptic send-off?
Thanks as always for interesting discussion. It really is more complicated than “few female protagonists = sexist”. I think a work of fiction can focus on character mainly male and still not be sexist. The story the author wants to tell just may have more male characters . Still, not saying women should be ignored or sexism condoned.
How about, “Yes, but less so than the average from its time?”
To Tolkien’s credit, we do have one powerful, well-adjusted female (Galadriel) who is clearly the real leader, even though she has a husband who is theoretically co-ruler (or maybe even theoretically the only ruler). Minor points for a very minor character (Lobelia) who is basically a fiesty old broad who’s willing to stand up to authority (doesn’t really challenge sexist roles, but at least it’s a woman with courage). We also have another female (Eowyn) who is strong enough to covertly challenge the sexist roles of her society, and in fact succeeds at a male occupation (killing the witch-king’s beast is actually the better demonstration of her fighting ability).
On the other hand, Eowyn’s desire to be like a man is clearly borne of temporary unhappiness and despair, and in the end she’s happily settled down as a high-class housewife. (Plus her one foray into a man’s role leaves her nearly dead with exhaustion poor weak thing). And that’s basically it for female characters that aren’t just trophy wives or stereotype gossips.
So, to sum up: Tolkien is by no means misogynistic or incapable of treating any women as real human beings, but LOTR and the Hobbit are overwhelmingly about men and their actions, and Tolkien is basically OK with that. Again, not a ground-breaking feminist, but better than his average contemporary.
Don’t think it’s fair to count Eowyn’s exhaustion after killing the Witch King is fair. Have not read the books but in the movie it seemed pretty clear it was a kind of magic backlash that injured her. Same thing happened to Pippin when he stabbed the WK.
It also seems pretty obvious in the movie that Galadrial is the ruling queen of Lothlorien and her husband was like Prince Philip. She let him begin the conversation with the questers but it was obvious she was in charge.
How are the books different? Also hwo is Lobelia?
Bilbo’s relation. Aunt or something. Old, crochety, snooping and grasping. Bilbo spends a good amount of time, and at least once the ring, avoiding her.
Lobelelia Sackville-Baggins is a cousin of Bilbo’s that he greatly dislikes. She is seen only briefly in the movies, at the Birthday party where Bilbo is strenuously avoiding her (and is certain she wants to get her paws on Bag End).
The movies do not cover the entire novel. Actually, a lot of things are different although the broad outlines are the same. But relevant to Lobelelia, in the books, Frodo and the hobbits return home “in triumph” to the Shire to find all hell has broken loose in their absence. Lawlessness, waste, and destruction are rampant. Saruman & wormtongue (neither of whom were killed at Orthanc in the books) are involved. There’s a bit of a war, and Lobelelia, initially an object of humor and mockery for her shrewish personality, shows strength of character unguessed at previously.
The movies skipped over this section and went straight to Frodo’s depature from Middle Earth.
Anyway, IMHO, in showing that women can have desires and motivations, as well as noble and valorous qualities of personality, that are of equal merit to a man’s LOTR is feminist for its time. It portrays a sexist society, in which women were not equal players in major political events, so there are fairly few important female characters. But the ones that fit in the story are treated with equal respect compared to the male characters.
Bag End is his house, right?
Okay I have another question. Just watched the second movie the other night and it was not clear to me whether Gandalf the Wizard died or not in the first one. Which was it? Also what did he mean when he told Ghimli that he was Saruman as he should have been?
Thank you! I once saw someone saying “Saving Private Ryan” was sexist. Their proof was that the majority of the female characters were “weak and frightened.” It’s a war movie!! :smack:
OK, as far as just LotR, we know from the books exactly what you know from the movies. Gandalf fell as shown, he returned and said pretty much exactly what he said in The Two Towers.
There is an enormous amount of backstory (called as a whole The Legendarium) that explains what Gandalf and Saruman were, but basically you can think of them as low level angels or minor demi-gods, sent to MiddleEarth with most of their powers blocked to help Elves and Men in the struggle against Sauron, who is also a low-level angel or minor demi-god. When Gandalf fell, his mortal body on Middle-Earth was killed, but he was re-incarnated and sent back to Middle-Earth with his powers slightly less blocked than they had been initially, as Saruman’s had been when they were first sent. Hence, Gandalf can be thought of as Saruman as he ought to have been.
If you want to understand the structure, hierarchies, and very long and complicated history, you can read The Silmarillion, and a number of other works that have been published, most of them after Tolkien’s death. Or you can Google Tolkien’s Legendarium and get pretty good summaries. There are a number of experts here on this board, Qadgop the Mercotan probably being the best known.
ETA: some of this is also included in the Appendices, found at the end of the book The Return of the King.
EATA: when I say re-incarnated, I mean literally re-clothed in flesh. The essence of Gandalf could not and did not die.
Eowyn’s physical exhaustion would have cleared up quickly. She, like Faramir, suffered from something called the Black Breath, which is basically too much exposure to Nazgul fairly up close and personal. It can be treated with the herb kingsfoil, as least in the hands of the King, but probably by anyone sufficiently knowledgable to use it. Understand that the Nazgul had not been seen for several millenia, so this lore had largely been lost to all but the Rangers (the heirs of Isildur’s line) and a few scholars. One of the symptoms/aggravating factors of the Black Breath is despair. That is, despair makes you more vulnerable to it, and it also causes despair. Kind of like the dementors in Harry Potter.
ahem - the dementors are like the nazgul, not the other way around. sorry, but I hate it when people I’ve known compare LOTR to Harry Potter, as if Potter cam first. (I know you didn’t mean it that way, Oy!)
IIRC, she says she’s going to put down the sword and become a healer. She’s not the only character that does that. Elrond did - in a big way! - before LotR started, and there are several other characters that make similar transitions in the extended stories. It’s less ‘she found a man and now she’s going to be happy in a traditional female role’ and more ‘this is how Tolkien shows personal growth and being at peace with one’s self’.
In the books she marries Faramir, and he’s assigned to restore Ithillien, the strip of land between Gondor and Mordor. It used to be a garden, it’s now a wasteland and inhabited by lots of nasties. (Shelob is still out there somewhere, along with thousands of orcs.) Eowyn managed Meduseld for years and the Rohirrim were quite confident in her leadership, so if I had to make a guess she’ll be in charge of the defense of their home/settlement while Faramir and his troops make further expeditions to chase out the remaining evil creatures. Tolkien evidently had a happy future in mind for them, I imagine they’ll make a pretty good team.
You know very well I didn’t mean it like that. 'Nuff said. 
for any LOTR folk still around - here is an interesting article about the making of the audio version of LOTR (not the unabridged one - the one with Ian Holm as Frodo) -
And really, the war is over, and what the world really needs is healers, to build the peace. She’s still devoted to what she sees as her duty, but that duty has changed.
Well, I disagree with this.
Sure, becoming a healer is maybe more feminist/empowering than just becoming a housewife – though on the other hand, she basically is becoming a housewife (maybe with a hobby volunteering at the hospital).
But it’s very clear she didn’t start out following ‘her duty’. She was supposed to be leading the Rohirrim left behind (you know, the majority of the population that weren’t fighting-age men); the people specifically asked for her instead of someone else that Theoden was going to put in charge. But she blew it off to sneak away to the battle. And at the end, she doesn’t say “Oh, the people are begging me to be a healer; I’ll do it even though it’s not what I love.” She says, more or less “No, I’m not a crazy at-least-half-suicidal glory seeker anymore. I think I’ll be happier healing people.” It doesn’t have anything to do with the degree of sexism in the book, but it’s clear that Eowyn was not a shining example of following her duty.