Today I was talking with a “conservative” friend of mine about the election. During which he stated that “mainstream America is mostly conservative” and that “liberal ideas miss the mark with most people”. Now this obviously hasn’t been the first time I’d heard this remark (in fact I heard it again tonight from a pundit on one of the cable news channels), but it was the first time I thought it through.
I pointed out to him that liberal ideas of women’s suffarage, civil rights, social safety nets (welfare, medicare, unemployment, and social security), and government funded education are ideas that most Americans would agree with. I am not saying that these are exclusivly liberal ideas, but that these are a few of the cornerstones that modern liberalism was built upon. The only problem is my friend sees liberal ideas only as Tax! Tax! Tax! Spend! Spend! Spend! , so my argument only went as far as my patience.
Would you consider that most Americans are conservative or liberal?
Apparently, heartland America, despite being relatively low population density, is the only real America, and they’re the only real Americas. If you’re from the coast, you’re not as real an American as they are.
But if you’re from the South, you’re almost as good!
If one would judge by the Gore_Bush election year I would say no. Gore got more votes than Bush.
Some people are fiscal conservatives but social liberals or moderates.
The Social Conservarives are driven more by their religion than others. They are driven by(the ones who email me) the worry that their Christianity is being taken away, although they do not seem to mind if someone else’s religion is held to their beliefs.
Most people I know to some extent believe as ideals-
in God & respect religion,
that marital fidelity is important and that cheating and divorce are undesirable,
that mental clarity is good & overindulgence in anything like booze or drugs
should be minimized,
that kids are better off when raised by a mother & a father,
that homosexuality is at best a little weird,
that people should work for what they get to the extent that they are able,
that immigration should be decently regulated and that people who come
here should respect the law, speak the common language and not expect public services,
that military service is honorable,
that success and wealth should not be penalized and that irresponsibility should
not be subsidized,
that national defense should be a government priority,
being tough on incorrigible or heinous criminals,
that public schools should focus on the three R’s first and secondarily support the above values rather than challenging them…
etc.
Now, there are a lot of self-identified liberals who believe all the above but are more lenient about much of it. And I am sure that we can come up with a list of values & beliefs which are regarded as liberal which most Americans believe.
I would describe myself as conservative liberal. I have no use for religion but I respect others right to worship as they please but have no respect for those who want to force their religious viewpoints on the rest of by legislation.
I believe that marital fidelity is easier in the long run and divorce is expensive.
I believe that mental clarity is good there’s less around than seems right. I believe that kids are not always better off when raised by a mother & a father.
I believe that homosexuality is one of life anomalies but is not a choice and those who are so, are deserving of respect and the same rights as anyone else.
I believe that people should work for what they get to the extent that they are able, that immigration should be fairly regulated and that people who come here should respect the law. What language they speak is their business.
Some services should be available to anyone living and working in America.
The military service is profession like any other and not more honorable than any other. People who die digging ditches for public service projects don’t get flag draped coffins do they?
Those who have more should give more. Irresponsibility should not be subsidized - You mean like Bear Sterns? Enron? Fannie Mae, Freddy Mac?
National defense should be a government function. Not a political tool.
Justice needs to be applied more equally.
That public schools should focus on the three R’s first and secondarily support the above values rather than challenging them. I don’t know what the second part of that means.
Nothing you’ve listed there could be considered “conservative” or “liberal”. That’s a good list of ideals for anybody, regardless of their political stripe.
Centrists actually. I think most American’s are neither conservative or liberal, but instead straddle the fence, being conservative on some issues and liberal on others. It’s the loopy ones at the extremes for which it’s an all or nothing proposition.
The degree (or direction) most American’s sway one way or the other is going to vary…but I think it’s safe to say the majority are fiscally neutral, and socially liberal and/or conservative depending on the issue being discussed.
Or, think of it this way…if it’s a nearly unanimous position on the 'dope it probably doesn’t represent what ‘most Americans’ agree with.
Check out the Pew Research Center Political Typology. Liberal, or at any rate Democrat-leaning groups (Liberals, Conservative Democrats, and Disadvantaged Democrats) make up 40% of the total population. Republican-leaning groups (Enterprisers, Social Conservatives, Pro-Government Conservatives) make up 29%. The remaining groups (Upbeats, Disaffecteds, Bystanders) lean independent if they vote at all. So, no, mainstream America is probably not mostly conservative.
In fact, the American people are moving left, slowly but steadily, and that’s not a momentary fashion or swing of the pendulum, it’s due to deep cultural, generational and demographic changes.
IMO, Mainstream America (whatever that means…it depends who’s swimming and in what river(s)) these days has some liberal values and some conservative values, but is more and more leaning to the right.
A lot of it has to do with the changing meaning of community. Once it meant “people around here” - a civic idea of values that allowed for some give and take for the benefit of all. This is a broadly liberal tradition, based on needs and common goods.
Now community often means “people around me” or “people like me” - a values-based idea of civics, where values exist for themselves as much as for the common good. This is a broadly conservative tradition, based on standards and ideals.
One result is that libs and cons agree on many broad, surface issues, but once you get below the surface - to the “whys” and “hows” - you find they interpret them in strikingly different ways. Rockridge Nation, a blog started by George Lakoff (the father of political “framing”), has some telling analysis of just how differently we see the same issues.
Example:
Broad issue: We should be tough on incorrigible or heinous criminals…
Conservative “frame”: …by making prison sentences as long as possible because we need them kept out of society, but also as unpleasant as possible because moral values demand we punish and not coddle criminals.
Liberal “frame”: …by making sure sentences fit the crimes because we need the worst put away the longest, but also working toward rehabilitation and humane treatment because moral values demand we not harden criminals or breed more of them.
I think many conservatives would claim that as a conservative tradition – and associate the other attitude you describe with liberal “identity politics.”
Those are, of course, archetypes. Actual mileage may vary - especially when you bring in the group’s self-image vs. the other group’s perception, and of course the limitless possibility for confusing identity with community. No one’s immune to any of that.
Lakoff et al assumed a “strict” archetype for conservatives and a “nurturant” one for liberals, which does, more or less, add up to “values before people” for cons and “people before values” for libs.
It really depends on what issues we focus on to define “liberal” and “conservative” – economic, or social. An individual’s position on the one is not determinative of his/her position on the other.
It really depends on what issues we focus on to define “liberal” and “conservative” – economic, or social. An individual’s position on the one is not determinative of his/her position on the other.
Well, ‘world standards’ are a bit, um, fuzzy, since it would depend on where in The World™ you are talking about. So, obviously I meant local standards (in this case the US).
On a related issue, do you generally use US standards (or ‘the worlds’) when talking about your own political system? Where on the continuity bar do you stack up again The World™? Left? Right? Center?
Obviously each nation uses its own standards for where on the political chart one is. I am Centrist by nature in my country but I’m sure I’d be labeled a liberal pinko in the States. Now the average American is not as far right as say The average Saudi but in a world view I’d say the US is generally leans more conservative on a world scale, especially on social issues.
I agree with you that people use their own yardstick to determine where their society is (only when the US does it somehow it’s a bad thing). I disagree with you that the US leans more conservative ‘on a world scale, espeically on social issues’. This is only the case if you equate ‘on a world scale’ to Europe/Western Nations. If we look at ALL of the worlds governments I’d say the US is probably in the middle of the pack on the whole social issues thingy. It’s only if we look at Europe (Western Europe mostly) and similar nations that the US looks disproportionately ‘conservative’. If we equate ‘on a world scale’ to, the Middle East, then the US looks liberal. Same if we compare it to countries like China and Russia (depending on WHAT we are comparing). Hell, depending on what we are comparing the US looks more liberal even than some Western countries on SOME issues.
I don’t believe there is a commonly accepted meter stick out there that is used to determine where a country ‘should’ be in the greater scheme of things. What I see is a lot of countries try and compare the US to some theoretical meter stick composed of selected bits mostly from Western Europe and a few other countries…with emphasis on ‘selected bits’ because if we go country to country in that large block called Western Nations there is a lot of variance between issues. What it boils down to is that a lot of Western Nations have things like Universal Health Care and the US doesn’t…so, we are more ‘conservative’ ‘socially’. There are a lot of other things involved (religion, for instance) that make us different than the Western Nations meter stick of course. And using Europe as the meter stick then sure…the US is more conservative over all (both socially AND economically). But on a ‘world scale’? Not buying that.
