Not really a debate for me, but it’s definitely not a GQ. And since religious stuff usually ends up here…
Martin Luther was excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church January 21, 1521. This would mean, if I’m not mistaken, that he was sent to Hell upon death. (According to Church doctrine of the time.)
Now, the idea of what Hell actually is (absence of God, place of eternal torment, common grave of all mankind) seems to change quite a bit from century to century, even within the same sect. To say nothing at all of how different it is in different sects / religions. (I mean no disrespect by the use of the word sect, ymmv.)
I can’t find anything saying the Mother Church changed its mind.
So… is he? If not, when where and what was the change?
I don’t have anything to add or subtract to this, and I’m not Catholic. But, in the above cite (bolding mine), it seems to say that the condemned go to Hell immediately upon death. My question is: does the Catholic Church (or Catholic laity) believe he (Luther) is in Hell. If not, what changed?
I do not personally believe in everlasting torment in Hell, but that’s not what my question/debate concerns. Just the specifics about Catholics and Luther.
I’m not sure that this is correct. So far as I know the Church has never claime the power of sending people to hell (or to heaven, for that matter).
It’s certainly not the current teaching. The only people who we can categorically say will not be saved are those who “knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it” (Catechism, para 846, quoting Lumen Gentium decree of the Second Vatican Council). It is likely that Luther either (a) did not consider that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, or more probably (b) did not consider himself to be leaving the Catholic Church. As long as these possibilities are open, we can’t say that he wouldn’t be saved.
Well, is it still a Catholic doctrine that “there is no salvation outside the Church”? Was that ever really a Catholic doctrine, or just a canard invented by Protestants? (Like the OP, I’m not taking sides, I’m merely curious.)
Of course, even if that is and always has been Catholic doctrine, it still doesn’t mean Luther is damned – unless it is also true that the Catholic Church was right and Luther wrong on all the fundamental questions that led to his break with the Church. But only God could answer that question for us, and He doesn’t post on the SDMB, so far as I know. (Of course, He could be using an innocuous username.)
If the Catholic Church really is right in all its doctrines and really is the one and only legitimate, authorized representative of God on Earth, then I guess Luther is damned and burning in Hell (just like most people who have lived since the dawn of humanity). What does excommunication mean, if it doesn’t mean you’re damned?
On the other hand, if Luther was right about everything, then I guess he’s in Heaven right now, looking down at Hell and laughing at the torments of the pope (which one was it?) who excommunicated him.
Then again, maybe both Luther and the pope are damned, while Calvin made it to Heaven, as he was predestined to do. The possibilities are endless.
Actually, the Pope mentioned during a trip to Germany in 1996 that a bull of excommunication was valid only during a person’s life, and that Luther’s case had long since been referred to divine authority.
He (the Pope) said that the Church had failed to recognize what was valid about Luther’s objections, and that the Church could do more justice to Luther today than in the sixteenth century. Cite.
So I believe that it is not official Church teaching that Luther is in hell.
For a given value of “Church”, this is true. However, various bulls and so forth have expanded the definition of “Church” beyond the Mother Church of Rome so that in certain circumstances a virtuous person outside the Catholic Church is saved as much as any Catholic. It’s just being a part of the Church proper is deemed the most perfect and reliable way to salvation.
Nonetheless, some Protestants complained that he did not formally revoke the excommunication of Luther. There had been rumors before the visit that he wanted to do that but had been dissuaded by his advisors. In response to this question on other occasions, John Paul has noted that an excommunication holds only during a person’s lifetime, and Luther’s case has long since been submitted to a higher tribunal, the final judgment of God.
and…
The visit of John Paul to Germany did not, then, produce an official declaration on the question of the condemnations. One may reasonably believe, however, that it helped clear the way toward that end.
That really helps answer the Q. Thanks.
And thank you to all the responders (and any who may yet wiegh in).
Don’t know the Church doctrine, but in the Dvine Comedy excommunicates just have to spend a little while waiting around at the gate of Purgatory before being admitted- assuming they die in a state of grace and everything. So if Luther died in grace, then he’s not in Hell, regardless of excommunication. And getting into Purgatory means that you’re already numbered among the saved.
Isn’t excommunication a form of church discipline rather than any kind of statement about one’s salvation?
I don’t know. But I thought that at that, at that time anyways, it was a statement about your potential destiny. I’m not exactly familiar with Medieval Catholic dotrine, so it’s possible I had the whole problem mixed up.
But, I thought that if the Vicar of Christ kicked you out of the One True Church, than that was it. And since “what is sealed in Heaven is sealed on Earth, and vice versa” [paraphrased], that then what Pope said was held to in the afterlife. So, in my reasoning (fallible, I’m sure) Luther was kicked out of God’s favor, and stayed that way. Apparantly though, based on responses in this thread, I had assumed wrongly. Or, at least, partially wrong.
True. The point is that a person who is denied the benefits of the Sacraments will be shocked into realizing that they have made a serious error and will turn back to the church. While I am sure that any number of church leaders have believed (and may have even claimed) that a person who has died while excommunicated was probably going to hell (as Luther and Melancthon and several folks on the “other side” claimed that they knew who was damned), it has never been a teaching of the church. The church recognizes that only God can truly examine the heart of a person and recognize whether they are saved or damned.
NoClueBoy provided the following quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia: "the souls of those who depart in mortal sin, or only in original sin, go down immediately into hell, to be visited, however, with unequal punishments (poenis disparibus). Interesting detail, that. Here in the States, where our political culture is mostly Protestant, we usually think of Hell (if at all) as one big Lake of Fire where all the damned suffer more or less equally. Apparently the Catholics believe there is a graded series of punishments, like in Dante’s Inferno – which is an idea with a lot more creative possibilities, especially if you’re trying to think up a “Hell joke.” (. . . “All right everybody! Coffee break’s over! Back on your heads!” etc.)
Keep in mind, the Indulgence Thing related to the time souls would have to spend in Purgatory, not Hell. If you were damned to Hell, away you went to burn forever or watch reruns of Hello Larry. If your were just “a little damned”, then you went to Purgatory for a while, to burn away your sins before entering paradise.
Indulgences simply shortened the time you would have to spend being purified before admittance to Paradise.
Yeah, I know. But I think it’s pretty much the earthly church claiming to be able to get someone into Heaven. In this case they’re not claiming full authority, just enough to speed up the process.