I see. Now I think I understand your position, thank you for answering all of my questions. You get the Max_S stamp of approval. 
It’s just semantics, I don’t want to hijack the discussion over that.
~Max
iiandyiii, it seems to me an apology wouldn’t get us very far. Are you saying that you think that acknowledging slavery was wrong with some words would make race relations better, or put us back to a starting point?
I find that hard to believe. It’s hard to believe simply because I don’t ever see that argued , well anywhere (except from you here of course) and to my mind, and the fact that it wouldn’t physically DO anything to change the facts/positions as they stand today.
If I assume that race relations would suddenly improve, do you think that then moving forward would be easier or what else would you hope happens after the apology?
It’s not just about slavery, and it’s not just an apology. That’s not what I said. And this is only a first step – a necessary, but not sufficient on its own, step. I’m saying that there’s no possibility of most black people believing that they are living in a fair system, with a fair chance at a decent life, in a country that doesn’t even fully acknowledge and take responsibility for how they have been treated through the country’s entire history. How could this be otherwise? How could Jews, for example, possibly think they have a chance at a decent life in Germany if Germany hadn’t fully acknowledged and taken responsibility for the Holocaust?
I’m interested in the what else. I don’t know if the US will ever be in a position where leadership will take that first step but assuming it does happen, then what?
Can we then have race-neutral policies?
If the country acknowledges its history of mistreating black people (and other people), make a sincere attempt at addressing and redressing these wrongs, and changes policies and practices such that people really are treated equally, fairly, and with the same opportunity for a decent life, then absolutely I would be in favor of “race-neutral” policies.
iiandyiii, I am trying one more time to get you to actually answer the posed question. You are very good about dancing around it but I would like to see some substance. What does the quoted piece above entail?
It’s a political answer meant to appease the populace but provides no substance. You are SURE that the apology is needed to move forward. Are you then sure that you know the next steps needed?
I ask simply because I see mostly race neutral policies in place today but the apology hasn’t been forthcoming.
I’m sure that it involves serious, detailed, long-term and very large-scale research. I don’t know exactly what that research would determine, but that is the next step.
This article goes into a bit more detail about that necessary research: The Case for Reparations by Ta-Nehisi Coates - The Atlantic
That makes for a good read. I am glad to say that we all live in a much better place than how that paints a picture of the US back then.
I would not be opposed to a study like that. I just don’t fathom how you get to the bottom of all the things that happened with the many threads that travel through time. You’d probably have to limit your research to things that were directly the fault or propagated by the federal government?
No doubt it would be a huge research project. But there’s still a ton we could learn – who was redlined? Who lost educational opportunity? Who had property stolen by institutions? Who was unjustly incarcerated? Who was raped? Who was murdered? Etc. I doubt we could find 100% answers for every single question and every single person, but I also have no doubt that there’s a ton of information out there that we could find, given the effort and resources. And I’d add in “things tolerated and allowed by governments” (meaning local, state, and federal governments) to “things done by governments”. Lynching, for example, was generally tolerated by local governments, but wasn’t always directly perpetrated by those governments.
This is a bridge too far IMO, that would be an impossible/extremely hard sale.
This would include most KKK actions. You don’t think the KKK (and similar groups) were a big part of the dangers and obstacles faced by black people in the late 19th/early 20th centuries? Seems obvious to me that they were.
What exactly would an apology look like? In 2008, the House of Representatives formally apologized to African Americans on behalf of the people of the United States. H.Res.194, 110th Cong. (2008). Were you aware of that apology, and does it satisfy that necessary first step?
~Max
Yes, I’m aware of that, and no, it’s not sufficient. I’d advocate something like a truth and reconciliations committee. Not a single statement, but an in depth process.
Of course they were!
You should send them a bill.
That is the sticking point i think, IMO it isn’t all the collective responsibility of America to be responsible for terroristic groups unless of course you can provide compelling enough evidence to convince a large enough group to vote on it.
Who knows, maybe the evidence is there?
I’m just going back and forth between that resolution and your post #238. I would have thought the resolution is exactly that “first step” you were calling for.
Here’s you:
“The very first step would be acknowledging this responsibility. To say, in essence, very publicly, prominently, formally, and permanently (or as permanently as possible) ‘The American government and American system was, by and large, a deadly and dangerous enemy of black people [and other groups as applicable – particularly Native Americans] for the vast majority of American history. The plight of black people [and other groups], in terms of being represented at the bottom of so many statistical indicators for well-being as a group, was due to these hostile policies and practices for the vast majority of American history. Things have improved significantly, but not as much as they need to, and we as a government and as a people (the American people as a whole) are committed to making our society as equal as possible.’”
Here’s the House:
"[…]
Whereas African-Americans continue to suffer from the complex interplay between slavery and Jim Crow—long after both systems were formally abolished—through enormous damage and loss, both tangible and intangible, including the loss of human dignity, the frustration of careers and professional lives, and the long-term loss of income and opportunity;
[…]
Whereas a genuine apology is an important and necessary first step in the process of racial reconciliation;Whereas an apology for centuries of brutal dehumanization and injustices cannot erase the past, but confession of the wrongs committed can speed racial healing and reconciliation and help Americans confront the ghosts of their past;
[…]
Whereas it is important for this country, which legally recognized slavery through its Constitution and its laws, to make a formal apology for slavery and for its successor, Jim Crow, so that it can move forward and seek reconciliation, justice, and harmony for all of its citizens: Now, therefore, be itResolved, That the House of Representatives—
(1) acknowledges that slavery is incompatible with the basic founding principles recognized in the Declaration of Independence that all men are created equal;
(2) acknowledges the fundamental injustice, cruelty, brutality, and inhumanity of slavery and Jim Crow;
(3) apologizes to African Americans on behalf of the people of the United States, for the wrongs committed against them and their ancestors who suffered under slavery and Jim Crow; and
(4) expresses its commitment to rectify the lingering consequences of the misdeeds committed against African Americans under slavery and Jim Crow and to stop the occurrence of human rights violations in the future."
~Max
Okay, that’s a good point. A single statement isn’t be enough, and my post made it seem like it would be. What I really mean is a process, similar to a truth and civilisations process, that would make the same sort of statement in a long term, interactive, and permanent way. Just as a start, as I said.
Is it possible for a truth and reconciliation committee to recommend against colorblindness and genderblindness in school admissions or hiring practices (that is, recommend against purely merit-based discrimination)? Can you see yourself agreeing with that kind of recommendation?
~Max
Possibly. But we’re a long, long way from there. What I advocate for is still on the fringe, unfortunately, even if it’s become a bit more popular on the last half decade.
Just trying to tie it back in with the original topic…
~Max