Is modern civilization a mistake?

Environmental issues and the additional pressures and strains that modern life brings, not to mention our great dependence on technology. We seem to idle our time with non productive work (Like anything that doesn’t contribute directly to survival). We seem to think that more tech will just solve our issues but will it? Was it mistake to advance this far?

The link makes some mention of it. Here is one of the comments on the matter:

"You should do some more research. I think you’ll find that most of the beliefs about history you express in this comment are actually myths created to defend industrial civilization from valid critiques.

For example, medieval peasants had more freedom and autonomy in their day-to-day life than modern office workers. They set their own hours and since their diet was almost entirely vegetarian they were mostly pretty healthy, saving for absolutely atrocious oral hygiene. By contrast, the early industrial revolution was probably the worst time to be a human being. Read some descriptions of factory towns circa the turn of the 20th century. The Jungle is a fine example. 16 hour workdays, 6 day weeks, no benefits and no provisions for worker safety. Few provisions for sanitation. Until the labor movement, the industrial revolution made life for the majority of human beings subject to it much worse.

So called “primitive” hunter-gatherer/gardener societies with very limited contact with modern civilization (sometimes intentional, as in the case of some sea nomads) are almost always the happiest groups of people despite a state of existence that doesn’t even qualify as “poverty.” Living in the moment as part of a community of human beings, hunting when you’re hungry and doing what you want otherwise is apparently much more fulfilling to the human organism than existing as an alienated individual relating to life mostly through bureaucratic machinery.

As far as education and social mobility go, try comparing Tocqueville’s account of American life in the 19th century to conditions in the 20th century. Before the modern state bureaucracy, much of it a legacy of the New Deal, Americans had more social mobility and education, despite not being compulsory and not lasting 12 years, was more successful. The vocabularies of 14 year olds in the 19th century were better than many of today’s college grads. Many high school grads can’t even read.

Technology solving problems. Vacuum cleaners are supposed to be time and labor saving devices. But are they? Before vacuum cleaners, people cleaned rugs by taking them outside and beating them with a stick. This takes less time than vacuuming. And since vacuum cleaners are usually very poorly constructed, they actually recirculate more dust and dirt than they pick up. So this time and labor saving device costs us more time and labor than its predecessor AND lowers the quality of the air in the home. So why do people use them at all? At first, effective marketing. And that had the effect of making vacuum cleaning the default means of cleaning carpets for the next generation.

You’re part of that next generation in a more general sense. Your life is so interwoven with technology that you can’t see clearly how the technology uses you as much as you use it. This is exactly why Kaczynski’s critiques of technology are important. You can’t see the whale when you’re in its belly. I don’t think Kaczynski’s revolution is possible; you can’t go back again. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be honest with ourselves about what we’ve lost."

If this subject interests you, you should check out the books by Nicholas Carr. I read The Shallows and have The Glass Cage on my reading list.

I’m mostly on the “I’m still going to live like this until I die”, but certain factors raise the question.

Carr isn’t exactly a Luddite though. He’s just trying to level a critique against a system of technology that is generally thought of as exclusively good. Kind of like the guy in your quote.

Well, humans have been dependent on technology basically for as long as they have been human…and I’d have to say our ancestors were more dependent from the perspective that without the tech they wouldn’t survive at all. I suppose that’s still true, but I don’t think we are any more dependent on it than we’ve ever been. Certainly modern life has more pressure (though being eaten is pretty stressful I imagine…as is worrying about starvation, disease, childbirth and all the other stuff pre-modern humans worried about), but I think life is richer.

Depends on what you mean by that…and when and where you are talking about. Generally, however, medieval peasants might have had those things, but had to worry more about disease, war, starvation and what the nobility was up to at any given time. They also tended to have large infant mortality, which is the case in all the time periods you are mentioning, which is pretty stressful. Personally, unless one has rose colored glasses on, I wouldn’t trade modern life for any of the time periods you are talking about.

Probably. But, really, would you trade having your kids have more than a 50/50 chance of making it to 2 or having a disease go through your entire band and wiping many, most or all hanging over your head for that sort of happiness? There is a reason why most hunter/gather societies that were in contact with any sort of large agricultural based civilization didn’t stay pure hunter/gatherers in the long run…and those still left are mainly in very isolated and cut off areas.

I’d need to see some cites for this claim. I have serious doubts that rural 19th century people in the US (or anywhere else) had ‘vocabularies of 14 year olds in the 19th century were better than many of today’s college grads’. :dubious: I’m dubious also that less folks are literate today in the US than then, which seems to be what you are saying.

I wouldn’t be surprised that they had more potential for social mobility, but then they also had less real world security from disease, starvation, war especially in the early 19th century period than today. Again, I think most folks would trade a bit of social mobility for more security from all that stuff, or from the large infant mortality that still plagued the population even into the early 20th century.

:dubious: Have you ever cleaned a carpet by hand? I have, and it’s a hell of a lot of work. It also is never really clean, generally because the cloud of dust you whacked off of it floats back inside or back onto the carpet. Also, since we are talking about carpets, have you ever lived in a household without electricity? In my experience the carpets were not wall to wall, but instead only in specific areas. With furniture on them. Just the action of getting the carpets outside to clean is generally a chore, as is putting them back afterward…and, again, they never seemed all that clean to me (of course, I was like 6 the last time I saw this in practice :p). So, I think even if you were right that it takes as much time (which I’m dubious of), it’s a lot more labor intensive to do this by hand than use a vacuum cleaner. Which is why, generally, people bought the things instead of doing it the old way.

He was a nut, basically. And he was also wrong. If we are going to rail against technology you’ve got to go back far, far in pre-history. Humans have always been dependent on technology. Hell, we were dependent on it before there WERE humans. Anyone who thinks we were less dependent on it in the past doesn’t understand how life worked or what ‘technology’ actually is…or both. All of the time periods you mentioned in your OP were all times and societies that were dependent on technology for their lives…even if the technology was fire, or a sharp stone tied to a stick, or a water wheel or a plow. To be human is to be a tool using animal completely dependent on technology to make up for the lack of claws, fur, sharp teeth, night vision and a host of other things. In general, the only thing physical humans are really, really good at (aside from technology) is our ability to run long distances. But we don’t do that very fast, so best have a sharp spear to fend off that tiger. :stuck_out_tongue:

A mistake? Probably not. Optimal for how humans evolved? Probably not.

That said I’m glad I don’t have to tear my carpet up to beat it with a stick outside.

This very wrong. Free peasant farmers did not set their hours, they worked all day, virtually every day out of sheer necessity to put food on the table. And for serfs, this is laughably wrong. The local lords had reefes that oversaw the serfs and ensured that they worked and worked and worked. [1,2]

And you know the routine famine and disease. It is actually surprisingly hard to lead a healthy vegetarian diet during periods of routine famine. [1,2]

Cite?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. You clearly have no idea how much work is involved in survival in a hunter-gather society. You know there was actually a very good reason we changed from such societies to an agriculture based one.

Well, now I just sound repetitive. This is so incredibly wrong. Social mobility had a sharp spike upwards after education became more commonplace and allowed the working class the opportunity to escape the cycle of poverty of being in the working class. [2]

[1] Schofield, P. (2002). Peasant and community in medieval England, 1200-1500. Springer.

[2] Bennett, H. S. (1937). Life on the English manor: a study of peasant conditions 1150-1400. Cambridge University Press.

[2] Thernstrom, S. (2009). Poverty and progress: Social mobility in a nineteenth century city. Harvard University Press.

Medieval peasants were like to be serfs. One step up from slavery.

Hunter/gatherers lived precarious lives. There was a good chance you wouldn’t make to age 5. You might have had a decent life if you made it to adulthood, but that was a crap shoot. Our prehistoric ancestors lived more violent lives than is typical today, so it’s complete nonsense that things were better back then unless you ignore all the people who died earlier than your typical person even in a desperately poor country today. In a developed country, there is no comparison.

:smiley: And only on the Dope would you find formal footnotes citing sources. LOVE IT.

Says kambuckta, sitting on her comfy lounge in a heated room (that I didn’t need to find wood for), connected to the world via a TV AND a computer, and about to cook some pork for dinner on a GAS stove (and I didn’t need to hunt down the pig in the forest either). Bonus is that I didn’t need to bash a rug to smithereens either when I cleaned today.

The olden-olden days would suck very badly for me on one very important point. But, then, I suppose if you can ride a horse, maybe eyeglasses are not that important.

Modern civilization is not a mistake.

How do I know?

Mr. Machinaforce asked whether civilization is a mistake so obviously it isn’t.

No. It’s been thousands of years in the planning.

I have to say I’m a little embarrassed that I was not able to successfully count to 3. :slight_smile: In my defense it was very late at night and I was tired. That’s my story and I’m sticking with it.

Well, actually, your average medieval peasant had about 100 days off per year, or roughly 27% of the time. Not too shabby:

“The peasants’ lot was hard, but most historians consider it little worse than that of peasants today. Because of the many holidays, or holy days, in the Middle Ages, peasants actually labored only about 260 days a year. They spent their holidays in church festivals, watching wandering troups of jongleurs, journeying to mystery or miracle plays, or engaging in wrestling, bowling, cockfights, apple bobs, or dancing.”

Interesting that you’d pick this as an example. Tell me, have you ever done this yourself - taken a large rug outside to clean it by beating it with a stick?

I have. As a child. In the snow. Multiple times.

Perhaps we have this experience in common from which to speak with some authority, yes?

I’ve seen that number before in similar discussions. The best I’ve been able to trace it to is a book by John Shacklefree. He does not cite where this number comes from, nor does he explain it any greater detail. He simply says that it is so. I’m pretty skeptical of that number. Certainly it seems likely that serfs might not work that much, if at all, on Sunday, but keep in mind this is pretty impractical. If something needs to be done because something has gone wrong, it is going to get done out of the need to live and/or keep the lord happy. But lets give them 52 Sundays a year. But 50 more days? That seems very unlikely. I’ve seen lists of known festivals, i.e. ones that are very well documented, and they don’t count more than 10-15. Many of these were celebrated at night with bonfires and festivities. In other words, they likely worked the day, perhaps shortened, and celebrated at night.

This sounds more like a Renaissance Faire than like the actual medieval Europe.

Yeah, I wasn’t satisfied with my cite, but it was the best I could find with the minimum of effort. :stuck_out_tongue:

But seriously, I would like to know the real answer myself. If you have any other cites, please do share them. I think I also saw that “100 day” reference in a book on medieval history I read, but my library is packed away in boxes at the moment, sorry. Wiki lists the General Roman Calendar, and scanning through it, I counted 24 non-Sundays* with the “feast” tag. No idea how this relates to actual medieval practice. There also might be celebrations for weddings, I would imagine.

*There are some feast days specifically set aside for Sundays. Moreover, I would assume that on any given year, some of the feast days would happen to fall on Sundays, anyway.

My cat’s breath smells like feline AIDS.

[zoom to Debbie Downer face, cue sad trombone music]

It does sound a bit PG-rated, doesn’t it? Leaves out the bear-baiting and leisurely trips to Gropecunt Lane.