Is modern Islamic antisemitism different than historical Islamic anti-semitism?

Great Debates
21

Actually, it does not mean that, at all, (although the word is often misused by partisans of one sort or another to imply that). An apologist is simply one who argues in favor of a philosophical position. A person could easily be an apologist for Zionism while decrying any number of specific actions undertaken by the Israeli government.

Now, I do not know whether Damuri Ajashi is more likely to use the educated or ignorant meanings of “apologist,” but his position is not clarified by you posting an erroneous “definition.”

Hah. As I predicted, so it begins. :stuck_out_tongue:

22

This an extremely dubious statement. Of course it’s an irrational hatred. All forms of bigotry are irrational.

Yes, many Muslims hate the Jews because they see the way that some Jews are treating Muslims and yes many Jews hate Muslims because they’ve seen the way some Muslims have treated Jews.

In fact, from a historical standpoint Muslims have been far more guilty of oppressing Jews than the other way around yet I would much rather be a Muslim in a majority Jewish country(Israel) than a Jew in just about any Muslim-majority country and in most western countries Jews seem to be far more opposed to anti-Muslim bigotry than Christians.

From my own personal experience, excluding the time I was in Israel, I’ve encountered far more bigotry from Christians than from Jews.

Beyond that, you’re creating a straw man.

No one has claimed that the modern day antipathy that Muslims feel towards Jews has nothing to do with Zionism or Israel.

What people have merely pointed out is that anti-Semitism has a long history in the Middle East and when you make claims such as “Muslims didn’t have any problems with Jews settling in their territory prior to the creation of Israel” you give the impression that you’re unaware of it.

That is complete bullshit and it demonstrably false.

Mormons didn’t have remotely the comparable history that Jews had amongst Muslims and you can’t understand the current hatred many Muslims feel towards Jews without understanding their relationship.

For centuries, Jews were viewed by Muslims with, in the words of Bernard Lewis, “tolerant contempt”. They certainly had a legal rank in Muslim societies, but it was a low rank, and they were required to accept a whole range of legal and social disabilities to show their inferiority to Muslims.

They were essentially the servants of the Muslim world catering to the Muslim rulers and completely at the mercy of the whims of said rulers.

What Zionists did was shatter the illusion that Jews were happy with this arrangement by demanding a state of their own in the land that was seen by all as their ancestral homeland.

Then they heaped further indignity on the Muslims by militarily defeating and routing them.

Being beaten by westerners and Christians was one thing. Westerners and Christians had always been seen as powerful and threats. Jews however had always been seen as weak, and wimps.

A good analogy would be to which would be more humiliating for a fifth grade boy. Having three eighth grade boys savagely beat him or having two fifth grade girls hold him down, strip him naked and then videotape him and post that video on youtube.

The humiliating defeat of multiple Muslim Arab armies during several wars was the ultimate indignity heaped on many Muslims and the ultimate symbol of how far they’d fallen. To be beaten by the people who used to be your scribes and whom you’d always viewed as wimps.

For those who think I’m wrong, just consider the list of groups who’ve done far, far worse to far, far more Muslims than the Jews have ever done without receiving remotely the kind of hatred.

Since Damuri wishes to bring up the question of Mormons stealing Muslim land, I’d point out how Armenia formed their own state, invaded Azerbajian, stole a massive chunk of their land, killed vastly more Muslims than the Israelis have ever done and caused far more refugees and not remotely as much ink has been spilled on the situation in Nagorno-Karabakh than has been spilled regarding the situation in Israel/Palestine(and please no wiki links on the situation, wiki is completely useless and a mess regarding what has been done to the Muslims of Azerbajian and NK).

Nor for that matter have Armenians suddenly become the Middle Eastern pariahs that Jews have become.

Similarly, it wasn’t that long ago that the Russians invaded a Muslim country, Afghanistan, killed vastly more people and created vastly more refugees than the Israelis ever did and yet while Muslim Arabs weren’t fond of what happened and some took action, the word “Russian” is not remotely the epithet that “Yehudi” is.

The same is true of the Serbs, the Americans, the British and others.

Why, because frankly, they’re not Jews, but are seen as Christians and Christians have always been seen as powerful and rivals rather than as wimps to be dominated.

If one wants a suitable comparison, prior to reconstruction, lynchings of black people in America and raw hatred of black people was rare. However, during the Civil War and it’s aftermath, when blacks took up arms against white Southerners and demonstrated that they hadn’t liked being slaves and that the White southerners had been deluding themselves, white southerners went ballistic. And, of course, nothing demonstrated how badly they’d fallen than to see blacks marching around in Union army uniforms.

23

Many if not most of the original Arab nationalist were Christians who obviously wanted to convince Muslims they were part of the same nation and trying to argue that the Jews were part of that same nation would have been pretty counterproductive.

There’s a reason Syrian, Iraqi, Lebanese and Moroccan(granted not that many compared to the other countries) Christians have been considered Arabs while the Jews from those countries were never considered Arabs though like the Christians of those countries they spoke Arabic.

I’d recommend reading both Bernard Lewis and Fouad Ajami on the subject.

24

Very, very good points, and thank you for posting that.

The concept of alphas and betas and omegas is as true on the stage of international politics and warfare as it is in all other areas of life.

25

So what is exactly an Israeli “apologist”? A Zionist? So be it.

But the way in which he used it - an Israel/i apologist - is not what he meant. When you put ‘apologist’ in front of a party or country, you’re essentially seeing someone as their PR rep.

Nothing he linked gave credence to the OP. Do you dispute that? If so, please. Be his apologist. :wink:

26

I know the role played by Christians in Arab nationalism (which always make me roll my eyes when I read people equating Arab Nationalism and Islamism). But then there’s a glaring contradiction in saying there has been a recurring antisemitic sentiment in the Arab world since the beginning of the XIXth century AND saying Arab Nationalism made a point of not being focused on religious divides.

Tamerlane goes on to talk about how the decline of the Ottoman Empire made all religious and ethnic divides flare up. I think it needs to be said that the Empire had already lost its grip on sizable parts of its nominal empire. And I think the status of Jews, and possible antisemitism, would have been very different according to what part of the Empire you talked about. So, casting an empire-sized net on what was a regional question does not seem like a good answer.
Tamerlane’ s take seems to be that there were a lot of religious and ethnical divides, and antisemitism was a part of that, not the most prominent divide but one that existed nonetheless and which would back the claim that Arab antisemitism has always been present.
I do not see things the same way.

And no, the little I’ve read of Lewis certainly didnt encourage me to keep on. He sounded like a hack.

27

I was posting a string of your posts over which time you develop this ridiculous notion that the current islamic anti-semitism is not the result of zionism.

You see how the words thousands of years? This is the argument I am talking about. Hey, guy, isalmic anti-semitism is nothing new, its been around for thousands of years. Pfft.

I am saying that there are different driving forces behind historical anti-semitism in the region (I will stop calling it islamic anti-semitism because I’m sure there is a lot of secular anti-semitism in the region)and modern day anti-semitism in the region and your attempts to conflate the two just disguises thefact that there are legitimate unaddressed grievances that have festered and turned grievances against people who happen to be Jewish into grievances against Jews.

It was one guy driving a lot of it. (Amin al-Husseini - Wikipedia). He was appointed by the brits and he was an Arab nationalist. (Grand Mufti of Jerusalem - Wikipedia). So he wasn’t a big fan of the Zionist movement.

He certainly held anti-semetic views but there seems to be some academic disagreement about whether his views were driven by his arab antionalism and his conflict with zionism or if he just hated jews.

It seems to me that you ARE making value judgments between Israeli society and arab muslim society and frankly I think it is appropriate to make such comparisons. Compared to Israel, the islamic theocracies are less democratic and somewhat unconcerned about human rights. What I don’t think is appropriate is to pretend that there is no criticism of these countries. There is plenty of criticism, it just doesn’t turn into a deabte because when someone criticizes these countries, there aren’t a lot of people who are willing to defend them. When someone criticizes Israel, there is not a shortage of people who will debate on its behalf. I think you see more disparity than actually exists.

THAT may be because you see anti-semitism behind every corner. We really need to stop assuming anti-semitism whenever someone criticizes Israel, it makes your position look weaker than it is.

And let be fair, by all accounts, there is plenty of anti-Palestinian sentiment in Israel and I don’t think MOST israelis are in an uproar over it.

And its not an excuse, it is the proximate cause of the conflict in the middle east.

What causes anti- Palestinian sentiment in israel? I’m gonna guess suicide bombing and random rockets flying out of Gaza are probably high on the list.

What causes the anti-semetic sentiment that causes these things to happen? I’m gonna guess taht the creation of teh staet of israel and the treatment of Palestinians since then have something to do with it.

What caused the state of israel to be created in Palestine?

Sure a lot of things went into it but organized zionism had a lot to do with it and the Holocaust probably played a big role. Its why people bring up the holocaust in these debates, as if the holocaust somehow justifies the creation of the state of israel in palestine despite the obnjection of EVERY country in the region. I mean think about it. Israel declares itself a state and immediately EVERY ONE OF ITS NEIGHBORS attacks.

Why was it so frikking important to have Israel in palestine?

One explanation I have gotten was that Israel was the only place that had enough emotional significance to rally the Jews around the world. If zionists had planned on an Israel in Uganda or Brazil, the movement would never have developed the momementum it did. So for the sake of having a viable movement early on, the zionists comitted themselves to Israel in Palestine and when history created the circumstances where the world acknowledged the need for a jewish state, the movement was committed to having that state in palestine and since they were the only ones who came to the table when the UN was drawing the map, it got drawn more favorably to the new jewish state than might have been drawn if arabs had come to the table.

BUT can you really blame the arabs for objecting to the creation of the state of Israel?

And, you certainly can’t point to the holocaust when justifying yourself to Palestinians.

28

Are you saying that you are a Muslim?

Nope, I’m not.

People are minimizing the effect of zionism in modern day anti-semitism and chalking it up to “muslims have always hated jews”

Where do I say “Muslims didn’t have any problems with Jews settling in their territory prior to the creation of Israel”? Because I’m pretty sure I have always held the view that muslims have had problems with zionism since at least the end of WWI and probably even before that but I think there was a distinct shift with the growth of the zionist movement.

How the hell is a hypothetical like this EVER * demostrably* false? Or do you have a special definition of demonstrable that I am not aware of?

You are hypothesizing about the psychology of all the muslims in the middle east. I’ve heard this theory before, it comes down to, arabs don’t mind getting beaten by Christians but beign beaten by Jews is unbearable.

How is this more than theory and hypothesis? How does this provide demonstrable proof in any way?

You are simply coming up with a theory that undercuts the notion that arab muslims are ticked about the creation of the state of israel.

Maybe there is something to the theory but you convert you are trying to convert your theory into fact.

29

I don’t care who is or is not an apologist.
I object to people inventing false definitions of words to try to score a point in a debate.

As to whether or not he made his point; I don’t care. I merely noted that there would be endless bickering over whether he had made it–and you reaffirm my point with every post.

30

Modern Islamic antisemitism is intensified by the fact that the thriving of Israel demonstrates that the Jews can do everything better than Arabs can. :smiley:

The Arab world is like a bully who keeps picking fights with a smaller boy, keeps losing, and keeps complaining to the principal. :smiley:

31

The Ottoman dissolution has been somewhat exaggerated in scope. The Ottoman state that had suffered a great deal of de-centralization in the 18th century, began re-centralizing in the 19th to some effect, particularly in the wake of the Greek revolt and the rise of Muhammad Ali in Egypt with the Tanzimat reforms. Ottoman borders contracted, but internal government authority actually increased within the remaining, still substantial territories, as autonomous warlords were increasingly replaced by Ottoman governors responsive to Istanbul. This was not a continuous process and foundered here and there, especially due to economic woes. Nonetheless that state did reform itself and even expanded its authority ( for example in the Arabian Gulf in the 1860’s and 1870’s ), in contrast to the usual view of it as perpetually stagnant and moribund.

However this is not necessarily simply an Ottoman issue, it’s just that the Ottomans were central because of it’s huge size. Morocco and Iran also felt the same effects, albeit with regional and cultural variation.

And anti-Semitism did indeed vary from area to area, but we’re talking broad trends here.

Well I guess it depends how you define anti-Semitism. The vituperative European Christian version was generally not part of Muslim culture in the pre-modern era. There were the occasional flare-ups of serious repression, for example in the Almoravid state in Spain were there was a backlash against the era of relative taifa tolerance ( when a few Jews had even reached the highest levels of government ). But they tended to be exceptions to the rule.

One could argue that classical Muslim views of dhimmis did not strongly differentiate between Jews and Christians ( indeed at times it favored Jews as “safer” ) and therefore charges of anti-Semitism are off target, because the root of contempt and lower social standing wasn’t usually Jewishness per se. And honestly that’s a very reasonable argument.

But you could also argue it splitting hairs just a bit, as Jews undeniably had that inferior social standing that under later stress morphed rather seamlessly into modern anti-Semitism. It’s really rather difficult to draw a bright line between the two historically, when you have one cultural phenomenon turned into another superficially very similar phenomenon. Other than to say the 19th century generally seems to mark the divide.

At any rate, whatever you want to label it as, the original argument is that it pre-dated the founding of Israel. And I certainly stand by that - it is clear to me that it did, if not necessarily by a whole lot in historical terms.

He’s not a hack, but he IS idiosyncratic :). Bernard Lewis is a medievalist by training and good one ( and lauded as such by his peers ). But frankly I wouldn’t take his writings on the modern era with anything less than a good-sized bag of salt. He’s a seems to be a bit of a Kemalist and his approach to the modern issues around Islamism come off as a bit tone deaf compared to folks like Olivier Roy or Gilles Kepel. But I think his pre-modern writings have a fair bit of utility.

32

Can you maybe cite something I specifically said, in quotes, and comment on it? Because I think you’re misunderstanding me.

Current Islamic anti-Jewish ideology (it really does seem to be Judeo-phobia mixed in with classic anti-Semitism with beliefs of superiority) is a continuation of pre-Israel anti-semitism. That’s what I said. I never said it wasn’t inflamed by Zionsim, but the Arab struggle against Zionism was rooted in Islamic anti-Semitism.

Put it this way: Why were Arab countries so hellbent against a Jewish state? Even a very very tiny one? Why did some Jews flee Arab lands even before 1948?

When I say, “Arab nations…opposed…”, I am not saying, “Every single Arab hated Jews and thought they were inferior” or some such. I’m taking about Arab leaders and their policies. Modern anti-Semitism in Muslim lands is certainly more widespread.

But it has. :confused:

No, I’m saying that one is largely a continuation of the other. Are you really saying that modern Islamic anti-Semitism would not exist without the creation of Israel? :dubious:

Regardless, to blame Jews for Islamic anti-Semitism is fucked up.

How many times has the UN Human Rights Cmte condemned Israel v.

Hamas
Syria
Saudi Arabia
Iran

?

Is Israel really that evil? Or is it held to different standards?

33

So you don’t think that zionism has anything to do with it?

And who are the Palestinians in your analogy?

As far as I can tell, Egypt, Syria and Jordan are not exactly “complaining to the principal”

34

I already cites three posts.

In the first one you say taht American jews have sympathy for the current plight of Israelis because they understand antisemitism that has been around for thousand s of years. You conflate modern day antisemitism with historic antisemitism.

In the second one, you respond to my question about where you think modern islamic antisemitism comes from and you lcaim that it has always been ther and you cite teh q’uran.

In the third one you simply refuse to distinguish between modern middle eastern antimseitism from historic antisemitism.

Because zionism was around before 1948.

Are you under the impression that zionist gypsies or zionist mormons who wanted to carve a nation out of Palestine would have been more welcome?

But it hasn’t.

Yes. I am saying that we would not see the sort of antisemitism we see today in the middle east but for zionism.

No, I’m blaming zionists for anti-zionism and that anti-zionism has morphed into anti-semitism. I’m not trying to defend antisemitism.

OK so now you want to make the arguement that most of the world is antisemetic. How does that have anything at all to do with whether or not middle eastern antisemitism is simply a continuation of historic antisemitism or if it is particularly virulent and widespread because of zionism.

Have I ever held up Israel’s UN record as evidence of its relative culpability? Like I said, if you want me to condemn other nations with human rights abuses, I will. But that does not excuse Israel’s own human rights abuses. I just don’t get a lot of pushback when i say that Saudi Arabia, Syria or Iran are guilty of human rights abuses.

35

They do.

No. I’m sure I make the distinction.

To distinguish ‘modern’ from ‘pre-modern’ means that one evolved from the other, right? Usually such. I said that Islamic anti-Semitism has always existed. I don’t know if anyone who would disagree with me.

I don’t think so. I said that the tenets of antisemitism don’t change. Antisemitism in 50 years will probably look different, but it will still be anti-semtisim.

Why was it so hard for Arab nationalists and Muslims to handle a small Jewish state? Is that so bad? Why did Iraqi Jews face repercussions for something that their Polish counterparts were trying to accomplish in Palestine?

If it weren’t Zionism, it may be something else. I don’t know. But I refuse to blame Jews for other people’s antisemtic beliefs. Do you refuse to do the same?

Sound like it.

Zionism is a belief that Jews have the right to self-determination. You want to blame Jews for that?

It’s like saying, “Well, if Germany had not received such punitive peace measures after WWI, Hitler would not have come to power and the Jews would not have suffered.” So do you want to blame the WWI Allied powers for the Holocaust? I don’t think so.

36

That would depend upon whether you consider history to be the actions of individual people or the culmination of events by large groups of people.

37

History is not a set of dominoes. :confused:

38

The stuff I see in the news today regarding Jewish Americana and AIPAC is similar to what was printed over 60 years ago.

Forget you not that the British were not friends of the Jews in Palestine. They kept refugees in prisons, double-dealt, asked them to serve in WWII and then reneged on promises. But some would have it sound that the Jews in Palestine were ungrateful criminals, and their American counterparts were the enabling accomplices.

‘…nor will Australians forget that the thugs and bullies of the Stern gang and other terrorist organizations were cheered and urged on from the sidelines by at least a considerable proportion of American Jews who provided millions of dollars for the deliberate purpose of stirring up strife in Palestine and** increasing Britain’s difficulties**.’

A modern-day recent letter to the editor:

Note that “Israel lobby” is a stand-in for “Jews”.

Hey, the Jewish lobby apparently put Durbin into power

Could British Jews possibly stay loyal? <gasp>

[.

[URL=“St. Petersburg Times - Google News Archive Search”]Not many exempt](St. Joseph Gazette - Google News Archive Search"[/URL).

Anti-Semitism, c. 1920: ‘Recent’, according to this paper, but it takes a lot of resentment to quantify as ‘anti-Semitic’. “…Jews being attacked whenever met.”

Opinion: Britons in Palestine anti-Semitic; incite Arab violence at times

Was there an Arab nationalism and land struggle in Palestine before Zionism really took hold in the 20s? Kinda. What was a struggle against the Brits became a more violent one against the Jews of Palestine and in Arab lands (rather unfortunate, because that’s a poor concentration of efforts: somehow I feel the Arab lobby would’ve been more successful had it operated otherwise). But anti-Jewish sentiment has always existed among these lands, even in Baghdad. Egypt’s Antisemitism was widely known. Just because a group isn’t outright persecuted doesn’t mean they are welcome. I mean, look at Jim Crow in America. We gave the slaves ‘freedom’, but then the lynchings began.

I’m far beyond the ‘who started it’ game, but to blame Jews or Zionists for Arab antisemitism is awfully backwards. Damuri,, do you think that antisemitism happened everywhere but ‘Arabia’ before Zionism?

39

Pure, unadulterated, literally interpreted Islam (i.e., true Islam) is anti EVERYTHING.

The key tenet of Islamic teaching is to disseminate ‘The Way’ Allah (through Mohammad) decrees and to expunge any opposition to this obtrusion of the Islamic belief system. In other words, Islam tolerates no compromise regards its position as the only true religion (whatever that means) and thus is wholly intolerant of any other theological doctrine, and indeed, anything that does not fall within the guidelines of Islamic precepts; like homosexuality, a female’s ‘inferior’ status in society, the religion’s extreme take on ‘blasphemy’ et cetera.

This, in fact, is why the coined term ‘moderate Muslim’ is an oxymoron. There is no such thing. There are either Islamist or failed, ‘wannabe’ Muslims; who are likely only a rung or two above your average infidel or ‘fag’ on the lapidation ladder¹. A moderate Muslim is like a paedophile catholic priest² – a contradiction.

This is an integral aspect to understanding why it’s seemingly impossible to reach consonance with Islamic cultures regarding democracy, equality, tolerance and the like – to do so, for them, would be in effect a forsaking of the fundamental trait that makes them a follower of Islam.

Islam = intolerance. (Lit., ‘submission’). Thus it follows that this must be the starting point whenever addressing issues relating to this particular fictitious belief system, if an understanding as to the oftentimes incongruous, barbaric and Neanderthal nature of Islam is to be attained.
¹In Sharia law, homosexuals, if convicted, are drawn and quartered, not stoned. My bad! :smack:
²Frequenters / admirers / lovers of Afghani ‘Dancing Boys’ are given a pass in regards the aforementioned ‘rending’. Apparently bacha bazi (child love) is an exception to thus same sex rule. Though female, Aisha would attest to this fact also.

40

Orthodox Judaism is intolerant. As is Evangelical Christianity. (Less so than militant Islam, I guess, but consider the context. The far right whackjobs of Israel will soon be as bad as Muslim clerics. Give it 5-10 years.)

But I was trying to say that anti-semitism in Islam has existed in actual practice.

:stuck_out_tongue: