LMAO!
Seriously, there’s a LOT of conflicting information here. I tried looking at a couple of places on the web, but they’re the same food-safety pamphlets that preach the same over and over.
I like to err on the side of caution, but all the same, in light of all of the conflicting advice, I’d like to find some data or statistics or something (mostly out of curiosity at this point).
Thanks everyone!
I always wondered why folk don’t get horribly ill from game meat that they hang up.
It is held by ‘those who know such things’[sup]TM[/sup] that this improves the flavour, seems risky to me.
Try [this web page](http://www.ces.uga.edu/pubcd/b915-w.html#Refrigeration and Hanging). Hanging is carried out at just above freezing with a carcass as clean as possible. IIRC enzymes get to work breaking down connective tissue, making everything tastier and tenderer (and also more “exciting” to eat).
[[she cooks it covered, and doesn’t touch it at all until the next day.]]
Guy here died from botulism from eating something just like this. I work in the Office of Epidemiology, so I hear about all the foodborne outbreaks. It’s a very, very good idea to refrigerate food. Even beans. - Jill
**
Another reason to speak up now:
Once you have a little Balthisar running around, make sure someone refrigerates the leftover jarred baby food, or any baby food or formula for that matter.
Little immune systems need a chance to develop. Think how bad you’d feel if she left out baby food overnight and then fed it to Junior in the morning and he got sick.
Slight OT, but related: You also should not feed him part of a jar of baby food directly from the jar (spoon from jar to mouth and back to the jar again) and then feed the rest later. Something about the bacteria in his salia contaminating the rest of the jar. Always put it in a bowl and feed him from that, if you know he won’t be eating the whole jar.
The method by which clostridium botulini causes food poisoning is unaffected by the storage of food at room temperature. The organism works in a can or jar with no access to oxygen and produces toxins which build up in the food stuff. When the can/jar is opened, the organism itself becomes inactive but the toxins remain. Leaving such contaminated food out will not increase the risk from botulism. If you have an affected can/jar, you are ill and probably dead whether you store it at room temperature or consume it immediately.
Luckily it is now very rare. It is caused by insufficient heat treatment of cans and jars and most industrial processes that do this in all parts of the world are now efficient. It used to be a major problem when people canned their own vegetables.
Scare stories like botulism are used by trainers to scare people into acting corectly, but the liklihood of being killed by botulism is down below being killed by lightning- about 10-20 deaths per annum in the USA, and none of these having anything to do with the actions of ordinary food handlers.
I am obliged to check in here with some first hand experience. Having cooked both professionally, and as an accomplished home chef I must concur with Yeah and Pjen. The rest of you (except JavaMaven, of course) are a bunch of whining hypochondriac pansies!
Let’s see, Monday night I cooked off three pieces of tri-tip that I had bought the week before on Thursday. The meat was marked down when I bought it, so we can safely assume that it was almost a week old before it got cooked. (It is important to remember that I store all meat in almost direct contact with the underside of my freezer and keep my refrigerator set to a very low temperature.)
I cooked the meat in grease that had been in the pan since that weekend from frying bacon for breakfast. Once the meat was cooked, I ate one piece and left the others in the pan tightly covered. I then proceded to eat the other two on successive nights straight from the pan without reheating. This was on a gas stove, so the pan even had access to the pilot light to incubate it nicely.
I experienced absolutely not one bit of distress or ill feeling in the least from doing this. Please try to remember that the human race only developed refrigeration and sophisticated food storage methods in the most recent recorded history. How in the heck did we ever make it this far if all of these foodstuffs are such vile pits of bacteriological infestation? I have eaten tortillas that have been bagged on my counter top (out of sunlight) that were over a month old. I have eaten refrigerated foods that were well over a month old and some of my frozen foods that were over a year old (thoroughly reheated, of course). None of these produced even a hint of gastric upset.
I vigorously maintain that we are sterilizing our environment in sundry and manifestly unhealthy ways. Please refer to this thread about cutting board safety for more information on this. It is now proven that children who grow up without direct exposure to a certain germ strain found in common dirt are much more prone to asthma and allergies. Given the meteoric rise of these two ailments, I prefer to draw a direct connection to this current fad for anti-bacterial soaps, and the like. This same mentality has been successfully transfered into the minds of food consumers who now throw out enough food each day (in these United States) to feed several third world countries simultaneously.
Rest assured that any guest entering my home is fed only the freshest ingredients and cooking. I carry out no such experiments on my friends, only upon myself. It is much the same philosophy used by commercial food establishments and the codes that apply. They are there merely to prevent food related illness. The margin of overkill (as it were) in the food processing codes is unbelieveable. I firmly believe that many of the people posting here with such reactionary views about food storage and disposal, have begun to, if not already completely compromised their own auto-immune systems by reducing their daily exposure to common environmental factors.
My stepmother was a “clean freak”, she was also routinely ill with minor complaints. She also insisted upon eating margerine instead of butter and had a heart attack in her forties. A roomate I once knew was also a “clean freak” and was constantly ill. Try to remember that in the not too recent past we were all rummaging around in the dirt after fat grubs to eat. All this fancy-schmansy stuff is just the window dressing of modern times. I am deeply concerned for the aging baby boomers who, after a lifetime of sterile conditions, will be ultra-frail in their ability to withstand the least challange or insult to their immune systems.
Dude, in high school my mom cooked a roast in the crockpot and turned it off at 11 pm. When I awoke at 7 am, I thought it would be okay and I even microwaved the meat and everything. Later that afternoon, I was so sick, that I was shivering, even though it was 105 degrees, blanketed and all, not to mention the puking, diarrhea, and extreme nausea.
The same thing happened when I tried to impress some people by eating some pizza I found in the garbage can of my house.
I don’t recommend either one.
[[The rest of you (except JavaMaven, of course) are a bunch of whining hypochondriac pansies!]]
It is true that most cases of food poisoning are mild and have delayed onset, so the cause generally isn’t known. But come work in my office for a week and you’ll pay a little more attention to food safety. I agree that most people do not follow the rules we always hear for food preparation and it’s surprising that we don’t get sick more than we do. Leaving food out on the counter overnight is foolish though - no question about that.
I know a great compromise for Balthisar and his wife. Buy a gigantic synchrotron and install it to where the most intense x-ray emissions are aimed right at your stove-top. That will sterilize anything, no matter what the temperature. It will also sterilize you, which is important because, in my opinion, children are even more inconvenient than a little food poisoning.
:: knock knock on the computer screen ::
Balthisar, are you out there?
:: knock knock knock on the screen even louder ::
Balthisar, are you out there!?!?!
Sweet sanctified vegans, its been a day and a half since we last heard from Balthisar! And at that time he was fearing a food poisoning attack by his bride!!!
Quick, JillGat, how long again does it take food poisoning to set in???
Call the ambulance, send out the rescue paramedics, and arrest that darn bride, for I fear the worst for poor innocent Balthisar!!!
Yeah:
He also said that his wife cooks the food in a sealed pot and doesn’t open the cover. The food in the bottom of the pot is in an anaerobic environment.
Zenster:
Also please try to remember that until very recently, a pound of ground beef (meatballs are made with ground beef) did not contain the meat from dozens of animals, but just one. Until very recently, chicken eggs did not contain salmonella. Until recently, fresh food products (produce, meat) were locally produced and did not reach our grocery stores from half a world away. Until very recently, cattle were not fed regular doses of antibiotics that not only help the cattle to grow bigger, faster, but also make those cattle more immune to the bugs that can kill us. Before refrigeration, death from “dysentery” and “summer sickness” was extremely common.
Can a healthy person die from food poisoning? Yes, but we usually don’t. Most of us contract food poisoning fairly regularly (think “stomach flu”) but we recover. On the other hand, anyone with a debilitated immune system (the elderly, the young, diabetics, the obese, those who are dealing with some other disease process, etc. etc.) are much more vulnerable to death from food borne illness.
Last fall, I contracted a vicious case of Clostridium difficle from a Burger King hamburger. I was violently ill for several weeks and was hospitalized with a potassium level of 2.7. (This was drawn after I’d already received a good dose of potassium.) If I hadn’t been in good health before this illness, that potassium level could have been low enough to stop my heart. If I hadn’t been healthy, my severe dehydration would have been enough to kill me dead.
It doesn’t hurt to use a little caution in the kitchen. Leaving food out overnight (especially meat) is simply careless. It doesn’t hurt to stick the food in the fridge.
The food scare paranoia can have considerable benefits. All food in Britain now must have a use by/sell by date. This leads to meat, fish etc. being given an extremely safe use by date- usually 2-3 days before anything could possibly be wrong. I regularly buy these products at about half price and freeze them immediately. I then defrost them in the fridge for a day and use them the next. The craziest thing is that they put a use by date on cheese- with Brie and other soft cheeses this use by date is usually several days before the cheese is actually ripe and fit to eat- buy unripe cheese and pay full price, buy nearly ripe cheese and pay half price!
Although I hear what JillGat syas about general safety, and agree with it, paranoia about food can take over. Many of the rules are more pertinent to high risk environments- many people preparing, many different practices in food preparation, lack of control over process. Sensible procedures like always reheating to food to over 160F for at least 2 minutes, stirring to ensure that all the food is heated will be more than sufficient for food safety- very few bacteria produce toxins that are not killed by this. (And pace Holly, clostridium needs and extreme anerobic environment such as a can or jar; it will not grow at the bottom of a covered container.)
Never take risks with the very young, the very old or the very ill.
My main complaint about this whole process was that I was responsible for a rehabilitation program for young men with major mental health problems. Because of food hygiene scares we were stopped from cooking any food with the residents because the organization said that full food hygiene procedures had to be followed. This ensured that we were unable to assist these people to develop good food hygiene skills. We then discharged these people to the community without these skills. Of course, then they were free to kill themselves by gross insanitary practices in the kitchen, but at least the organisation wouldn’t get sued!
I pointed out that we made daily decisions about and with these people that involved major risks in their lives and the lives of the community (there was a criminal/psychiatric fringe in the group), but apparently the organization was willing to trust us with giving qualified parole to pedohiles and potential suicides, but would not allow us the risk of letting them boil and egg. End of rant!
Excellent points all, Holly. I especially detest the multiple carcass slaughtering methods of today. The larger quantities of intestinal fecal matter introduced are apalling. I do not advocate risky conduct in the kitchen. As a chef it would be irresponsible of me to do so. My main point is that people are overly sensitive about food storage to the point of near hysteria. The book “On Food an Cooking” by Harold Magee has an outstanding section on preservatives and their efficacy that brings into perspective the shelf life of our foodstuffs.
I would never dream of using anything but a wooden cutting board and believe the panic about them to be complete balderdash. I also maintain that my constant low level exposure to food bacteria enables me to maintain an extremely high resistance to infection in general. The fact that I get sick about once a year bears this out to my own satisfaction.
And I will point out, since I don’t think anybody else has yet, that for legal reasons the Straight Dope Message Board isn’t allowed to say, “Yeah, go ahead and leave the meatballs out on the counter”, because if you do, and you get sick, you might sue.
The Straight Dope is, officially, “put them in the fridge.”
I would not put a pot of boiling food in the fridge. Yes, the fridge can handle it perfectly and yes the cost of electricity is minimal but you are raising the temperature of the fridge for the next few hours until the pot cools down. You may be helping spoil other stuff. (Try this: put a thermometer in the fridge and see how the temperature rises)
OTOH, even though the risk is not big, I would not leave it out overnight. I think the best compromise for the both of you would be to let it sit out for a couple of hours.
If I need to put a pot of boiling stuff in the fridge (like if I am going to sleep) I will put it in cold water first until it has cooled down sufficiently.
Also note some foods are more prone to contamination than others. A pot of beans is not the most dangerous thing in the world.
As has been pointed out, good food handling is a precaution to diminish odds that are already small. Healthy people should be able to handle thoese beans left out overnight.
No, it dosen’t hurt to stick it in the fridge. But we all make mistakes, we all forget, and when that happens, is the risk great enough to justify throwing away food? I admit, I wouldn’t eat taco meat left out over night, but if I forget and leave a pot of potato soup sitting covered on the stove, or a pizza on the counter, I don’t want to throw it out unless there is a real risk–because there is a real cost.
“Guy here died from botulism from eating something just like this. I work in the Office of Epidemiology, so I hear about all the foodborne outbreaks. It’s a very, very good idea to refrigerate food. Even beans.” - Jill
Surely you, as an epidemiologist, know that the plural of anecdote is not data.
Still alive 
despite having been gone a couple days!
I think maybe sailor had the best idea for compromising with the hot cauldrons of beans and meatballs. Wifey says they’re too hot to put in the fridge (and that’s a good point about raising the fridge temperature). I think I’ll fill up the sink and set the pans in there to “pre-cool.”
[[Please try to remember that the human race only developed refrigeration and sophisticated food storage methods in the most recent recorded history.]]
And until recently - and still in many parts of the world - gastroenteritis sickens and kills many people.
Yes, yeah (that sounds strange), I know that the plural of anecdote is not data. I wasn’t making the point that it’s likely to happen, only that it can.
Jill