Is my wife going to kill me? (food poisoning)

[Holly]

Pjen:

(And pace Holly, clostridium needs and extreme anerobic environment such as a can or jar; it will not grow at the bottom of a covered container.)

The anaerobic environment needn’t be too extreme. I’ve read about a restaurant that caused a massive botulism outbreak. They saved the leftover, foil-wrapped baked potatoes in the pantry; after a couple of days, when they had enough of these, they used them to make potato salad. A foil-wrapped potato is hardly an extreme anaerobic environment.

MandaJo:

But we all make mistakes, we all forget, and when that happens, is the risk great enough to justify throwing away food? I admit, I wouldn’t eat taco meat left out over night, but if I forget and leave a pot of potato soup sitting covered on the stove, or a pizza on the counter, I don’t want to throw it out unless there is a real risk–because there is a real cost.

Potatoes grow in the soil, so they’re not as germ-free as one might suppose. I certainly wouldn’t eat potato soup that had been left out overnight.

I guess each person has to decide the risks for himself. Throwing away food that may be perfectly fine is costly, but becoming violently ill is costly, too. I tend to err on the side of caution because I hate to throw up.

[Yeah]

“The anaerobic environment needn’t be too extreme. I’ve read about a restaurant that caused a massive botulism outbreak. They saved the leftover, foil-wrapped baked potatoes in the pantry; after a couple of days, when they had enough of these, they used them to make potato salad. A foil-wrapped potato is hardly an extreme anaerobic environment.” - Holly

Actually, Holly, it was the dip. The poisonous potato salad was back in '78.

A large outbreak of botulism: the hazardous baked potato.
Angulo FJ, Getz J, Taylor JP, Hendricks KA, Hatheway CL, Barth SS, Solomon HM, Larson AE, Johnson EA, Nickey LN,
Ries AA. J Infect Dis 1998 Jul;178(1):172-7
“In April 1994, the largest outbreak of botulism in the United States since 1978 occurred in El Paso, Texas. Thirty persons were affected; 4 required mechanical ventilation. All ate food from a Greek restaurant. The attack rate among persons who ate a potato-based dip was 86% (19/22) compared with 6% (11/176) among persons who did not eat the dip (relative risk [RR] = 13.8; 95% confidence interval [CI], 7.6-25.1). The attack rate among persons who ate an eggplant-based dip was 67% (6/9) compared with 13% (241189) among persons who did not (RR = 5.2; 95% CI, 2.9-9.5). Botulism toxin type A was detected from patients and in both dips. Toxin formation resulted from holding aluminum foil-wrapped baked potatoes at room temperature, apparently for several days, before they were used in the dips. Consumers should be informed of the potential hazards caused by holding foil-wrapped potatoes at ambient temperatures after cooking.”

Restaurant-associated type A botulism: transmission by potato salad. Seals JE, Snyder JD, Edell TA, Hatheway CL, Johnson CJ, Swanson RC, Hughes JM. Am J Epidemiol 1981 Apr;113(4):436-44
“In the period November 13-18, 1978, seven cases of type A botulism occurred in persons who had eaten in a restaurant in Colorado. The outbreak was recognized when two persons who had independently eaten at the restaurant were hospitalized with an illness compatible with botulism. Surveillance efforts identified five additional cases. Potato salad made at the restaurant and available for service during an 11-day period was epidemiologically incriminated as the vehicle of botulinal toxin transmission (p less than 0.00001). Laboratory studies showed that Clostridium botulinum spores on the surface of potatoes could survive baking in the manner used by the restaurant and that botulinal toxin could be produced in potatoes contaminated with C. botulinum spores.”

[MandaJo]

I guess each person has to decide the risks for himself. Throwing away food that may be perfectly fine is costly, but becoming violently ill is costly, too. I tend to err on the side of caution because I hate to throw up.

And my point is that a person can’t decide for themselves because accurate information about the health risks is not avalible: any information on food safety takes a hard line stance that makes it sound like the chance of catching food posioning from less-than-Martha-Stewart hygene approaches 100%, and that leaving a piece of pizza in a ziplock bag on the counter for 6 hours is the same as eating raw ground beef that sat in the sink for a week: there is never any sense of proportion in the information you find, so the layman can’t tell what must be taken seriously and what can be reasonably worked around.

[Holly]

Yeah:

Actually, Holly, it was the dip…<snip>Toxin formation resulted from holding aluminum foil-wrapped baked potatoes at room temperature, apparently for several days, before they were used in the dips. Consumers should be informed of the potential hazards caused by holding foil-wrapped potatoes at ambient temperatures after cooking."

I remembered the book I read about this stating that it was potato salad as opposed to dip, but it’s really irrelevant because the foil-wrapped potatoes were the cause of the botulism poisoning.

Manda JO:

And my point is that a person can’t decide for themselves because accurate information about the health risks is not avalible: any information on food safety takes a hard line stance that makes it sound like the chance of catching food posioning from less-than-Martha-Stewart hygene approaches 100%, and that leaving a piece of pizza in a ziplock bag on the counter for 6 hours is the same as eating raw ground beef that sat in the sink for a week: there is never any sense of proportion in the information you find, so the layman can’t tell what must be taken seriously and what can be reasonably worked around.

Any time you eat out in a restaurant or order pizza or even eat at another person’s house, you are placing yourself at some risk because you didn’t prepare the food yourself and therefore can’t know if it was prepared properly. (Hopefully, the health department is watching out for you.) Any time you prepare food for yourself, you can’t tell if it contains some horrible germs. You greatly reduce the risk to nearly zero if you cook the food yourself and store it properly, even if it originally contains deadly bacteria.

What are the risks in real numbers of eating meatballs or pizza or potato soup that has been left out overnight? It depends on the sort of bugs with which your food is contaminated. It may be perfectly harmless or it may be deadly. The only way to know for certain would be to examine your food under a microscope and be able to recognize the various sorts of harmful bacteria, which is hardly practical. It also depends on your own personal immune system, which may or may not be able to protect you from food poisoning.

It’s like Russian Roulette, in other words.

Yes, everyone makes mistakes and leaves food out overnight by accident. When I do this (I rarely ever do nowadays), I slap myself in the forehead and throw it away, vowing to be more careful in the future. I can’t afford to waste food, either, but since I’m cooking for small children and elderly, debilitated, immune-compromised people, I can’t afford the risk. If I was living on my own and I was the only person who would face the risk of food poisoning, I’d probably eat the pizza.

[BigGiantHead]

I can always count on Dopers to have already talked about most anything going through my mind… I was just thinking about this kind of behavior earlier, as I cleaned the disaster area my bachelor kitchen had slowly become. But I wan’t too worried about it all, it’s not like I had leftovers on the stove for days or anything.

Actually, I routinely leave coffee in the brewer and reheat individual cups as I want them. It’s a pain making coffee for one! This can frequently result in drinking stuff that’s been sitting out for as much as a week. Any thoughts on the breeding potential for room-temperature coffee?
And, just because he’s my idol, I thought I’d put up George Carlin’s take on all of this. [sub]From his album You Are All Diseased, particularly a propos in this case, I think. Reproduced without permission.[/sub]

 ... Fear of germs, why these f***ing p**sies. You can't even get a decent hamburger anymore. They cook the s*** out of everything now, because everybody's afraid of *food poisoning!*. Hey, where's your sense of adventure, take a f***ing chance, willya? You know how many people die from food poisoning in this country every year? *9000,* that's all, it's a minor risk. Take a f***ing chance, buncha G**d***ed p**sies.

 Besides, whaddya think you have an IMMUNE system for? It's for *killing germs!*  But it needs practice! It needs germs to practice on. So, listen, if you kill all the germs around you, and live a completely sterile life, when germs do come along *you're not gonna be prepared.*  And nevermind ordinary germs, what are you going to do when some SUPER virus comes along and turns all your vital organs into liquid shit? I'll TELL you what you're going to do, you're gonna get sick, and you're gonna die, and you're going to *deserve it,* because you're f***ing weak, and you've got a f***ing weak immune system.

Let me tell you a true story about immunization, OK? When I was a little boy in New York City in the 1940’s, we swam in the Hudson River. And it was filled with raw sewage. We swam in raw sewage … y’know, to cool off! At that time, the big fear was polio. Thousands of kids died from polio every year. But you know something? In my neighborhood, no one ever got polio. NO ONE. EVER. You know why? Because we swam in raw sewage. It strengthened our immune systems! The polio never had a prayer, we were tempered in raw shit!

So, personally, I never take any special precautions against germs. I don’t shy away from people who sneeze and cough, I don’t wipe off the telephone, I don’t cover the toilet seat, and if I drop food on the floor I PICK IT UP, AND I EAT IT! Yes, I do … even if I’m at a sidewalk cafe! In Calcutta! The poor section! On New Year’s morning, during a soccer riot!

And you know something, in spite of all that so-called “risky behavior,” I never get infections. I don’t get 'em! I don’t get colds, I don’t get flu, I don’t get headaches, I don’t get upset stomach. And you know why? 'Cause I got a good, strong immune system, and it gets a lot of practice.

[staccato military diction] My immune system is equipped with the biological equivalent of fully-automatic military assault rifles, with night vision and laser scopes; and we have recently acquired phosphorus grenades, cluster bombs, and anti-personnel fragmentation mines.[/staccato military diction]

So, when my white blood cells are on patrol, reconnoitering my bloodstream, seeking out strangers and other undesirables, if they see any - ANY! - suspicious looking germs of any kind, they DON’T F*** AROUND! They whip out the weapons, they wax the mfer, and deposit the unlucky fellow directly into my colon! Into my colon! There’s no nonsense, there’s no Miranda warnings, there’s none of that “three strikes and you’re out” s*. First offense, BAM!, into the colon you go!

I’m with him. In my years in the Navy’s submarine force, I frequently came up from a filthy, oil-and-dirt ridden bilge, after having both hands inside a seawater system where you can’t imagine what sort of things were growing within, and had to hustle to the mess decks before they closed. I didn’t always stop to wash my hands. Still here!