Is Nazism a completely empty political philosophy?

In another thread I said, “Nazis had no coherent political philosophy but loved spectacle, greed, and killing people they didn’t like.” Thinking about it, and doing some research, I think I nailed it (though I usually think that) and have concluded that they had no plans for the future after they had conquered Eurasia and killed all the Jews and Slavs*. They conquered to gain Lebensraum, but for whom? Urban Germans, like Mao’s urban Chinese, didn’t want to be farmers, and the idle war machine could be quickly switched back to tractors and fertilizer, improving yields faster and cheaper than slave labor provided by Slavic slaves, who’d be dead anyway. And how could they hope to hold the vastness of the USSR? There just weren’t enough Germans to do it, they kept killing the Slavs who might like to help, and getting more Germans by breeding is a long-range plan that doesn’t help for twenty years.

The reputation of German manufactured goods was improving pre-war, so it was a shame to waste it on weapons and factories that were destroyed in the war. They were the go-to guys for chemistry and nuclear research. And everybody has had a good laugh at the folly of killing or exporting so many scientists and engineers, and not just Jews.

So, where was Nazism going after a German victory? I’ve read some of Hitler’s speeches and they are mostly for boosting morale, bragging, and sneering at lesser peoples. It was all so vague that I wonder if he started WWII because he was running out of ideas. There was no way that mess was surviving another thirty years, much less a thousand without a complete rethink of their goals and the means to achieve them.

So, do I have a point or am I just talking out of my ass, like usual?

    • Term used in the most inclusive manner possible. And do you know who also used “Slav” like that? Yep, other people who don’t have the time or patience to list every nationality in the Soviet republics. Like Hitler.

Shit, I’m glad I changed my email address to one that doesn’t contain my name so my wife doesn’t run a search on my web presence and say, “It said you like Hitler.” The last time she did that she found a comment I’d made on a YouTube video about how Joe and Magda Goebbels murdered their children in the Führerbunker.

“As I recall, I was against it.”

“Doesn’t matter. Potential employers will associate you with Nazis.” :rolleyes:

National Socialism did have a political philosophy; perhaps a paranoid, delusional philosophy, but it had one nonetheless. The starting point for investigating it would be an English translation of Mein Kampf.

To grossly oversimplify it, it denied both conventional morality and the Marxist notion of impersonal social forces, instead harking to the Nietzschean idea of the Will as the highest expression of cause. As practiced by the Nazis, it also threw in some pseudo-Darwinism and a lot of Aryan mysticism.

Maybe perpetual war was really the goal / only answer. Somehow that seems too easy though.

One of the central tenets of Nazism is that there are distinct ethnic groups that have genetically defined moral characteristics. Nazism advocates the “good” ethnic groups should rule over and/or eliminate the “bad” ethnic groups. Being as there’s no basis in this premise of genetic morality, all the conclusions derived from it are wrong.

I didn’t say they had none, it just seems like it was a very shallow and wooish one with no deep plans for after 1942, after England had accepted terms and the Soviets were all dead or in camps. And the wooiest shit was kept from the public; I think one reason Hitler kept that grasping and conniving loon, Himmler, around was for the laughs.

There is a difference between Nazism as a concept and the military plans of Nazi Germany.

Nazism holds that the world’s races/nations (races, in Nazi terms, should be nations) are in a state of perpetual conflict, and that the worthiness of a race is determined by its ability to win that conflict. The central philosophy of Nazism really doesn’t need to be viewed in terms of how the Nazis ran their war effort; you could in theory have a Nazi regime in Australia starting tomorrow.

There was a mumble floating around that Adolf Hitler was pissed off at Germany (because of the defeat in the big war) and his ultimate goal was revenge – to “bring her to her knees”, or something like that. If there were any truth to that, the NAZI ideology would be a veneer of legitimacy painted over a roil of anger and hatred.

This seems to imply that Naziism would never have existed without Hitler, a much-argued point among historians, who agree broadly that he was critical to its development as a movement but also that the atmosphere into which he introduced his ideas was highly receptive for some militaristic and xenophobic movement to emerge. The degree to which Naziism was an outgrowth of Hitler’s personal philosophy is still unresolved.

And as book end, regarding World War II. IIRC at the bunker Hitler reported that what was happening to the German people, all the death and destruction of the last days of the Reight was deserved, because the army and the people failed him, therefore they were not so superior after all, so they deserved to die.

Nazism was a Utopian philosophy like Communism, there was actually a lot of writing about where they were heading and they even released propaganda films showing what the Nazi Utopia would look like once achieved. Basically the Nazis wanted to create a volkisch, Utopian fantasy of 19th century German peasant life where everyone was ‘racially pure’.

Their ideas weren’t necessarily fixed and were often self-contradictory, but probably more importantly, like all Utopian philosophies their goals weren’t realistic.

Does Nazism necessarily imply a one-party system? Does communism necessarily imply it also? It seems to me that the concept of the Communist Party, with all direction given by the party hierarchy, is inescapable from Leninism.

Could “reform Nazism” have come about, maybe roughly in the way that “Eurocommunism” or “neocommunism” were attempts to focus on the good bits (?) and throw away the bad parts? Could a more alert German parliament have quashed the dictatorship, and reduced the Nazis to “just another political party?”

(The American Nazi Party doesn’t seem to have accepted these reforms, and, it would seem, would outlaw all other parties at the drop of a Nebelwerfer.)

Naziism would, I think, have to be one party, at least a guaranteed majority, or it would probably fall. I could see them, perhaps, for the sake of appearances, cede some seats to other parties, as long as they could be certain of their own majority, and probably then only in peacetime.

Soviet communism developed the way it did in large part because of Fanni Kaplan. Had Lenin lived another decade, he might have been able to provide enough support for the Trotsky faction to keep Papa Joe at least in check. We might have actually seen Lenin’s “dictatorship of the proletariat”, at least to some degree.

It is worth noting that the Nazis never really won a majority in Germany, they just used maneuvering and, well, long knives to gain control of the country. Not much the parliament could have done to rein it in.

A question: Did Hitler at all declare his love and concern for white people? It seems this is what many white pride people ‘admire’ him for.

See Fascism: A History, by Roger Eatwell. From John J. Reilly’s review of said book. (I can’t link to the whole thing – Reilly’s webpage is gone since he died. :()

Hmmmm . . .

Come to think of it, the exercise of the will is the only meaning life can ever have.

But, there is more than one way to exercise the will, and not all ways involve asserting power-over-others.

A reformed Nazism actually might not be too different from China right now-a nationalist technocracy with extensive state involvement in the economy although not socialist.

Not really, its quite obvious he liked certain non-white peoples such as the Japanese better than fellow Indo-European speaking whites such as the Slavs. Which is ironic since a lot of neo-Nazis are concentrated in Russia nowadays.

Hitler hoped to create a Greater Germanic Reich ecompassing the former territory of Poland and European Russia and much besides.

For AH-literary speculation as to that, see:

Fatherland, Robert Harris.

In the Presence of Mine Enemies, Harry Turtledove.

Hitler did not think so, and he always wanted WWII. He believed in the Germans as Herrenvolk and he believed in the power of the “will” over impersonal forces like the laws of economics. He never would have considered the possibility that the Reich eventually might self-destruct like the USSR. Victory in war would solve all problems.

A good source here is Modern Times: The World from the Twenties to the Nineties, by Paul Johnson. Chapter 10, “The End of Old Europe”:

Chapter 11, “The Watershed Years”:

Fascism was a much more coherent philosoply then Naziism. The Nazis fetishized action and will and so there ideology was less systemized than Italian fascism. What the Nazis added to fascism was the notion of race purity as others have already said.
What drove Hitler to start WW2 was malthusianism and Germany’s experience in WW1. Prior to WW1 Germany was eclipsing Great Britain as the most powerful nation on earth. Germany was the center of science and education and was becoming the great industrial power of Europe. In WW1 Germany had a superior Army and never lost any German ground to the allies, but lost for the most part because the Army and civilian population had been ground down by the length of the war and the British blockade. This lack of resources and especially food meant to Hitler that Germany needed to be self sufficient if it was to survive and thrive. Otherwise other countries would dominate the natural resources and could starve Germany whenever they wanted. All societies were in a fight for limited resources and those with the power to take the resources would expand and thus without the power would see their resources taken by the strong and would starve.
Thus Germany had to take over Slavic lands and use them to grow food for the expanding German people. They also had to take over Russia for its resources and to keep the Communists from attacking them. Once Germany had all those resources it would be in the catbird seat for the final conflicts and would inevitably win them and rule the world.

I agree with the post except for the last bit.
I don’t think they fancied themselves as rulers of the world. Rather as having their rightful place at the table of leading countries. They saw themselves as equals (or even better) but never felt part of the club. Rather accepted into the club.

At its heart, Naziism was a pretty weird cult-some of the top Nazis wanted to revive the worship of Wotan. There were also some weird variety of sun worship going on. After the final victory over Russia, the German people wold be totally de-Christianized (Hitler saw Christianity as another variety of Judaism). Reproduction wold be controlled by the state, and anybody judged (unworthy of life-mental patients, people with birth defects, etc.), would be euthanized.