Did you read this whole thread? How is what I said “not quite true”. Of course teachers should take measures to prevent and catch cheaters. But to take the time to turn in papers to cheating websites and the like is a little overboard in my opinion (as it the negative opinion many people have of cheaters).
Why should cheaters receive the sole benefits of recently developed technologies? What you suggest amounts to unilateral disarmament on the part of teachers and honest students alike.
Gosh, from the English language I learned, I would have thought that “hater” meant somebody who actually hates somebody else.
Or perhaps people’s points in Great Debate discussions would be better expressed (and be seen with more credibility) using correct English, not hip-hop slang?
Well, the title of this thread is: “Is plagiarism that big a deal?” And it’s actually a vague question without knowing the context. It looks to me that you are approaching the question in the context of “Is plagiarism that big a deal compared to other crimes, infractions, bad behaviors?” In that context, sure, you have a point. Plagiarism is certainly not as bad as serious crimes: murder, rape, assault, etc.
But most of the folks answering in this thread, I believe, are answering from a different context. Not the “world view” context, but from the context of the educational world, since that’s what sparked the question – plagiarism in school classes. In the educational world, I believe most teachers will say, “Yes, plagiarism IS a big deal”. Note that this is not in comparison to larger crimes – this is in comparison to other things that would typically happen in the learning environment.
I agree, and most of the folks in this thread have agreed with this statement, also. However, I do believe there are some cases that are serious enough to warrant harsher measures. Recidivism tends to escalate the seriousness, as well, in most teachers’ eyes.
Personally, I prefer to deal with students that are caught copying by trying to turn them around, so that they get off their asses and actually learn. Some have done this. For that, I am proud of the changes they made in their own attitudes. Some have not. And those will likely be slackers in the “real world” too. High School and college is where a lot of people form their work ethic. I’m not saying that somebody lazy of dishonest on their assignments can’t change their tune and grow up. But people who are slackers in the work world (and there are plenty of these in all disciplines – even people who are now teachers) were most likely slackers in school as well.
These two statements are a little bit contradictory, in a sense. If a teacher takes “reasonable measures” to prevent cheating in their class, that pretty much involves making some changes to the way the course is run. In fact, I would argue that a good teacher should always be looking for ways to improve how the course is run, AND to improve the accuracy of the evaluation (i.e. grading) of students’ learning.
Personally, my own courses and policies have evolved over time. Not all changes are directed at prevention of cheating, but some were. For example: After the incident of a test paper being stolen from a test session, I started requiring my TAs to proctor the exams, check IDs against a roster, and collect exam papers as students leave. This doesn’t take much extra effort for me, and the TAs only have to do it three times a term. They are supposed to be working for me 20 hours a week, anyways. So I just build it in as one of their job duties.
Another example would be how I’ve changed the grading policy – the actual percent breakdown of tests/homeworks/etc. It has changed a few times as I tried new things. One of the reasons (but not the only reason) was to combat the cheating problem. Specifically, to take the benefit out of it. Tests weigh heavier than homeworks in my course, but to give the students an earlier indication of how they are doing, I give three tests in a term, instead of just midterm and final.
In judging how well a course is working, many aspects will (and should) factor in to changes made by a teacher on how the course is run in the future. One of these factors (again, not the only one) will inevitably be how to handle cheating, whether it be through prevention, detection, or minimizing the benefit of cheating. I see this as falling under the blanket of “Assessing grades accurately and fairly”, something I see as an important aspect of my job. I cannot assess grades accurately for students turning in plagiarized work unless I evaluate the situation and make the appropriate changes to the course – in a way that is fair to ALL students. In other words, I don’t believe that other student’s grades should suffer because of the plagiarists. But I’m not going to award plagiarists grades they haven’t earned, either.
I think many teachers see it the same way and understand that courses should evolve for a variety of reasons – eliminating the things that don’t work, keeping the things that do, and striving always to improve the learning experience, as well as their own ability to accurately and honestly assess each student’s progress.
What you said is “not quite true” based on a reading of your posts in this thread. Summing up your point as:
overlooks a variety of other points you’ve made, such as
and
Do you see where the “not quite true” comes from?
Further, can I ask why you’re mounting such an impassioned defense of cheaters and cheating? You’ve said that you don’t cheat, and that you don’t think it’s a particularly big deal. Why then do you care? Is it the philosophical exercise or arguing for the party in the wrong, or what?
Indeed. I’m referring to students who don’t get to choose which classes to take.
Not while I was watching. Teachers didn’t have the authority to assign punishments, IIRC; that was a job for the principal. I did witness students being sent out of class for not working, but I didn’t really care to find out what happened to them afterward.
It carried with it the threat of punishment. Whether or not the principal would actually follow through on that threat is arguable, I suppose, but my classmates and I never had any reason to question it.
Agreed.
Yes, that’s what I am arguing. 
Exactly! That was the point of my ditch digging analogy earlier in the thread. I believe cheating an oppressive system can be justified, and that this is such a system. I may be in the minority of folks who believe that, but, well, everyone’s outnumbered at some point.
Why should you worry about how your GPA compares with his? You’re going to have a pretty tough life if you get upset every time someone else gets something the easy way that you had to work for.
Sounds like a great reason not to grade on a curve.
No.
If you’re talking about college students, then they’ve already decided to spend their time doing classwork. That’s why they’re in college, which costs real money and is voluntary. When you enroll in college, you’ve already made the decision to endure a curriculum of learning coordinated by others. You’ve admitted up front that you want to learn.
If the student is in high school, on the other hand, then s/he is a minor and not qualified to make the decision.
Further…
What on EARTH do youth rights have to do with overlooking cheating? Are you seriously suggesting that, in order to respect the rights of minors, we should excuse them from following the sets of rules that are set out to ensure fair play and equal protection? How does that respect their rights?
On websites, how much effort does it take to log in and click an upload button? It doesn’t sound that overboard to me. And if a student can search for work to copy online, I can probably find it with the same search, and with very minimal effort. google.com is just a click away. Same goes for the TurnItIn sites.
This is what I would like to hear more from you on. As in, the specifics. I think the reason you’re getting a lot of argument on these points is that you have not been very specific on these points. I, for one, would like to know what you consider appropriate measures.
Most of your arguments have been to state what you think should not be done – expulsion, students turning in other students, teachers setting “traps” to catch cheaters (athough this one is pretty vague, as there are varying levels of what might constitute “traps”).
Because of this angle, it looks like many folks in this thread have gotten the impression that you believe teachers should simply not bother with it – if somebody cheats, so be it, let them do it, no big deal. But you have stated that you think teachers should take some measures, but not overboard (like in the preceding quote).
Could you explain (with examples) what measures you feel are appropriate? and what measures you feel are overboard?
For example, here’s a specific question.
Scenario: Teacher finds out that a student turned in copied work on a homework assignment. i.e. the student did not do the homework – the student’s submission is a copy of somebody else’s work. This is the student’s first offense (to the teacher’s knowledge – i.e. in this course). What do you feel is the appropriate action that should be taken?
A) Do nothing. Grade the submission under the same criteria as all the others and give the student the resulting grade.
B) Give the student a stern talking-to, but still grade the paper and student receives the grade.
C) Zero credit on the assignment.
D) Zero credit for that assignment, but give the student a substitute “make-up” assignment to complete instead.
E) Zero credit on the assignment and a reduced course grade
F) Send the case to the department head (or the prinicpal, in the case of high school), to be judged and decided at a higher level.
G) Suspension for few days (in the case of high school).
H) Some combination of the above choices?
I) Other (Please explain.)
I think if you were to tell us the details of measures and responses that you felt were “appropriate”, and what things you are claiming are “overboard”, that people would have a better idea of where you are coming from. They may not agree, but your positions would certainly be coming across more clearly.
Okay, so I see you’re only talking about high school and earlier – not college.
Are you claiming that requiring minors (i.e. children, teenagers, people still living as dependents of their parents) to go to school is an oppressive system? Please explain your rationale. (Also, how old are you? Are you IN high school?)
If children are allowed to decide whether they actually have to go to school or not, then the vast majority of them will of course opt NOT to. Do you think this would actually be a mature, or rational, or wise decision? Please explain how this is in the best interest of the child – to allow them to opt OUT of an education. Please explain how this is going to benefit society, once these uneducated children grow up and start running things.
This circles back to the question I asked earlier. And as brainiac4 answered:
Agreed.
How does this respect their rights: “If the student is in high school, on the other hand, then s/he is a minor and not qualified to make the decision.”
That’s the type of thinking I want to change. Minors are as qualified as anyone to decide how they want to spend their time. If you force someone to take a class he has no interest in, and you tell him his future prospects depend on getting a passing grade, you should expect him to think about ways to get the passing grade without doing the work he doesn’t care about.
That doesn’t mean teachers should overlook cheating, since assessing whether someone’s learning and assigning an appropriate grade is part of their job, but I do think employers and other people outside the education system should be more understanding. What really got me involved in this thread was the characterization of people who cheat in school as bad people - and I say that as someone who never cheated or needed to (I was happy to barely pass a class with an A on tests and a D on daily assignments).
When you put someone in a bad situation, you shouldn’t be surprised if he does bad things - it reflects more on the situation than on his integrity. If you’re stranded in the mountains, you might eat a dead crewmate to survive. If your family is captured and tortured by terrorists, you might spill some information to protect them. Being forced into school is obviously far less severe than either of those, but I believe it’s still a situation that deserves sympathy.
Mr2001, perhaps you should take your discussion of youth rights into a new thread?
Just a suggestion.
How is “hater” not correct English? The denotation of the word has not changed. The connotation has drifted somewhat. Sorry if you can’t keep up with the evolution of language, but don’t try to pretend like it is somehow less legitimate or credible than most language people use (including here in GD).
Most people are answering it that way because they aren’t dense. I didn’t think I needed to limit the debate in such a way. I doubt anyone thought I was comparing plagiarism to murder or any other real crime. There is not much debate there.
The rest of your message has very little relevant information. Everybody please listen. If you want to post your personal anecdotes about how you run your classroom and other things that have nothing to do with the question at hand, please do it elsewhere.
Er, before I get jumped on for this:
“All minors are qualified to do X” is no more accurate than “No minors are qualified to do X”. I meant to refute Brainiac4’s generalization, not assert my own: being a minor (i.e. under age 18) does not automatically prevent anyone from knowing how he wants to spend his time.
Guinastasia, not a bad idea.
That was addressed to the teachers whereas my other posts were to everyone.
Probably a little of both of those. In general, I like having debates. Also, I realized before making this thread that I was in the minority on this issue. I felt like maybe some of you would be able to articulate your side in a way that made me see/understand what I was missing.
By the same token, though, we aren’t seeing or understanding your position (or at least the position you’ve taken here). While cheating or plagiarizing once or twice in your life does NOT make you worthless or bad, doing it on a regular basis is a pretty solid indictment of your character. It indicates a lack of work ethic, a lack of ethics, period, a lack of empathy for your peers, and a lack of honesty. It also presages a lack of actual expertise and readiness in the chosen field of study, which can be disastrous.
It is a lot of effort if the papers have to be scanned, and if you have dozens of them. Not to mention the money it costs to access some of these sites.
I haven’t taken the time to do what you asked for two reasons:
- That is not what this thread was about
- The various methods teachers use to combat cheating are too numerous and varied to address explicitly. The context, nature of the assignment, student, and any mitigating circumstances must be taken into account. I don’t know how I could possible make some kind of list describing how I feel someone else should run their class. I can’t see how making up numerous examples would be a productive exercise.
In your example, I would advocate for either C or D.
It was addressed to me. I spaced it as rhetorical flimfammery, but apparently you were serious. What makes you think I’m a teacher? I’m not. If you don’t want teachers spending time catching the more sophisticated cheaters, would you go along with schools hiring groups of specialists specifically for the task of exposing cheats? That’d minimize the disruption of the curriculum you seem so worried about, and keep the plagiarers under control too.
False. The rest of that post was specifically responding to two statements that YOU made:
I expressed my opinion on these statements:
- These two statements are contradictory.
- Taking “reasonable measures” means making some changes to the way a course is taught.
- I gave examples of what I thought were “reasonable measures”, and how that involved making some course changes.
SO, regarding your statements (quoted above), I am saying that I agree with the part that I labelled “(2)”. I disagree with the part I labelled (1), based on the stated discussion above.
How is a response that addresses an assertion YOU made irrelevant to the discussion? Or are you claiming that your assertion was irrelevant to the discussion as well?
Because rank-in-class is an important metric used by colleges in their admissions programs. Because the no-integrity subperson cheated, he now has a higher rank in class than I do. How is that right? Why should he get that benefit? Why should he get the spot that should go to me?
Cheaters take that which they don’t deserve: good grades, good class placement, academic accolades. That’s a load of bullshit.
Not all bad actions. But cheating is lying – real lying, not white lies – and that indicates a complete lack of integrity. Good people do not take credit for work they do not do. Period. End of fucking sentence.
I do my own work. I deserve to be higher in my class than the trash who cheat. Hell, they don’t even deserve to be in class with me and the real students. They’re loafers and parasites.
This case is. You’re in class to be measured on your ability to do the work. You either do the work, or you take the failing grade.
You are arguing that people – cheaters – are entitled to grades they did not earn. That’s bullshit.
As a graduate student in political science and a teaching assistant, policing for cheaters is my job. I’ve not caught any. So far.
It takes less than a minute to submit a class worth of papers to the cheat detection system used at my university.