lekatt, you may yet win the award for the ability to most consistently post the direct opposite of facts.
One of the strongest proponents for the foundation of this country, and one who most clearly conceptualized the ideals upon which it should be established, was frequently reviled by his Christian fellow citizens as an atheist. Thomas Paine would have had a much more successful life if the “god fearing” people who accepted his calls to strive for liberty and found this nation had not hypocritically shunned the man who gave voice to their aspirations.
God did not make it onto the money for eighty years after the founding of this country–and many (if too few) great leaders, including the responsible Christian leaders, argued against that corrupting act.
What the judicial system did, was finally recognize that a small Christian minority was imposing its odd beliefs on the rest of the country–Christian and non-Chrstian alike–and tell them to stop.
No one was interested in “conquering the world” as a whole, just dominating it. There’s a huge difference.
**
That’s not true. We were the largest industrial power of the world, practically completely shielded from direct danger on our mainland by the oceans.
Also, the axis countries tended to be fiercely nationalistic. To say that we had our flag, and that they didn’t, doesn’t ring true.
**
All of these very debatable. Early on, some are true, but by the later point, when we were really engaged in the fighting, it was simply not true. Even at the start of the war, I don’t think the Japanese navy was larger than ours, and there was absolutely no doubt that our navy wouldn’t dwarf theirs. We produced more ships in 1944 by tonnage than Japan did during the entire period from 1933-1945. And that’s dedicating a small amount of our war effort towards Japan.
The number of deaths was closer to 400,000.
I don’t mean to sound insulting at all, as I have a great respect for all that served at the time - I just feel compelled to address some of the errors, as this is one of my areas of expertise.
And, as an aside, the founder of one of the groups that’s instrumental in fighting for the seperation of church and state, “Americans United for the Seperation of Church and State” is a Rev. Barry Lynn, an ordained minister in the United Church of Christ.
Actually, most people back then seemed to think that a country should be founded on solid secular principles: ones belief in a God was an issue OUTSIDE of the federal state, because the state was to be political, cynical, and utterly human construction. What made the country great was people of all kinds working together on common ideals: very new and controversial humanistic ideals like equality, liberty, and freedom. Ideals that had no necessary connection to anyone’s religious beliefs. Indeed, your particular concept of a “loving God” was hardly a mainstream view of God. Religiously, people’s conceptions of God back then tended to swing far more to the great and terrible glory rather than the soft-lit walk on the beach.
But how can you say that belief in God was THE foundation of our country, and what made it great. If anything, our nation was the odd-man-out in the world because we were NOT founded on any claim to religious right or authority. Other nations explicitly WERE founded on those ideas: and yet we, who were not, surpassed them. How do you explain that one?
Yeah, right, the pilgrims fled England to establish a secular society. One any atheist would be proud of, I guess I didn’t read the same history book as you.
Yes, I knew that, I am not a Christian either, I am a spiritualist or Deist or Theist, whatever. I don’t just believe in God, I know God exists. A near death experience convinced me of that. What I don’t understand is the great fear atheists have of the word “God.” Why the crusade to remove the word from everything, do they want everyone to be atheists, if they do, it will never happen. Spiritual people have rights too. The country is for equality. Quit trying to impose the atheist religion on the general public. I also realize all atheists are not fanatics.
Not engaging you in a debate, the numbers I quoted were from the History Channel on TV. Being a small child during the War, I was very impressed with it, and have been studying it all my life. I grew up with the veterans and worked with many of them.
At the beginning it was a tremendous challenge. I worked with a guy who hit the beaches on Guadacanal, he spoke of eating raw fish for months because of Japanese control of the seas.
The eastern coast of America was well covered by German U-boats, they sank tons and tons of American shipping, so much that tankers were forbidden to come into that area. They also frequently shelled shore targets. We had little or nothing to stop them.
We can out of the war an industrial giant, but not when it started.
In the battle of Midway, American carriers faced a force 4 times their size and won. I believe through the prayers of millions of people. Have you ever thought why the Japanese survelliance plane that made contact with our fleet had a defective radio, and why our dive bombers found the Japanese planes on the decks of their carriers instead of in the air. Accident, good luck, providence, we sank four of their five carriers because of it.
This is my understanding of the war. When I was in the Navy, I was on the USS Willett, there was a memorial on the ship with pictures and the names of the sailors who died when the ship was hit by a Japanese suicide bomber. I visited it often.
The point is millions of American have died to preserve our freedoms and our liberties. They are for all Americans not just fanatics.
The “under God” statement was added to separated us from the Communists who forced atheistism on the Russian people, or tried to, it was not very successful.
Now, I have nothing against Christians or Atheists, but fanatics need to be stopped by the wisdom of the majority. We all live here, everyone of us are worthy of liberty and freedom.
For all your talk of love, you’re a pretty hateful guy lekatt.
And you did read the same books as I, hopeuly, but going “ha ha, Pilgrims were religious” isn’t in the least relevant to the foundation of this country. I never said anything about the people who founded this country being areligious. The founders were mostly deists, but the people were mostly religious. That has nothing to do, however, with the principles on which the country was founded. You miss the very very important fact that the U.S. had a unique idea: the country wouldn’t be the be all and end all of people’s lives. It would instead have authorities limited by the rights of its citizens.
We formed a secular government not because anyone hated religion, but because it was thought that government and religion did not belong together: each would corrupt the other, as it had in Europe. And while European countries, based on divine rights and close combination of church and state, crumbled into corruption and revolution, OUR country thrived. Indeed, religion thrived: not as an aspect of the state, but as an aspect of personal practice and belief.
My grandfather was an officer on a ship with a similar history, and survived only by happening to be on the battle bridge instead of the main one.
My other grandfather was shot down by the Germans and taken as a POW.
So?
Their sacrifices do not justify any position you want to invent in their names, using their efforts to sell whatever ideology you are trying to sell here.
It wasn’t an act to separate us from them, because it made us more like them.
Don’t want to go through all your post. It appears what I said was not understood. But I do want to add something about the justification of atheists using the phrase “separation of church and state.” This has been distorted so badly, before long, if it isn’t stopped by wiser minds, arrests will be made for speaking of God in public.
For centuries in England and other countries goverment was shared with the church. The pope was consulted on every change in policy. So it was natural our founding fathers did not want that influence on our government. With our religions so diverse and no one “head” to challenge the decisions of government I doubt we have anything to worry about. The phrase has just become the tool of the fanatic.
Now, for the principles of our government, the rights of all people is a spiritual teaching, it will be impossible to separate man from religion because man is spiritual and remain that way even if legislated against.
Hey lekatt, the Queen is the head of state of England, and also the fidei defensor of the Church of England. Our separation of church and state is de facto at best. Yet England’s way more atheistic than the US. Please explain how that happened.
I’m sure you will ignore this point, (as you ignore evidence in every thread), but the ACLU has defended the rights of students to read the bible in school–provided the school was not teaching the bible as “true”–and the ACLU is currently defending the practice in one school of allowing a person to distribute free copies of the bible (as long as it is made claer that this is not a school sponsored activity).
The only result of the current direction of laws and judicial decisions is a small reduction in the number of people persecuted by “God-fearing” Christians for having the “wrong” beliefs.
I’m happy for the ACLU, I have supported them for years. Now they need to stop the teaching of evolution in schools as real. Then get some balance in teaching creation theories or do away with them completely.
On second thought, home schooling has proven best. They make the highest SAT scores.
lekatt, For all your talk of love, you’re a pretty hateful guy, lekatt.
Well Leroy, it seems you are to many members of this board who also find anyone hateful that thinks beyond the petty nitpicks that they subtitute for an exchange of comments about the nature of things. They seem to forget that words are fuzzy things that can only convey general impressions of reality and not present truth naked and encapsulated.
Its a crying shame that a worthwhile exchange of ideas, like a pipeline, must have two ends, and information only flows if reasonable men are found at both ends.
However they are good people, they are just mad…
Mad at the world because many people don’t recognize how smart they are.
Mad at the world because Bush fights wars, rich men have money, and nobody much gives a damn about the human rights of low-life fish.
But mostly they are just mad because they like to be mad. It makes them feel important, if impotent.
Hey Leroy! Look at me! I’m not mad! I like you… lots! I’m dumb and happy too! Keep the faith! Bye, Milum.
Well, since the schools are teaching the SCIENTIFIC Theory of Evolution (using the SCIENTIFIC defintion of Theory), it will take something known as SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE to get them to stop teaching something that has the preponderance of evidence in its favor.
Well, since there’s only one SCIENTIFIC theory of creation that fits the SCIENTIFIC evidence, there’s no reason to do away with teaching SCIENCE in a SCIENCE class. Now, those other “theories” to which you refer: how about the Hindu mythology or the Shinto creation story? Or do you prefer your particular religious credo be taught as though it’s SCIENCE although it has ZERO SCIENTIFIC evidence to support it (since it’s a RELIGIOUS story and not SCIENCE after all)?
Thanks for the boost, I agree with you completely. I know they are good people. I see the main problem as a lack of experience with the real world, but that will come in time. There are more things to learn in this world than I will ever have time to pursue. They believe they have already mastered all knowledge, and those who don’t agree with them are just fish bait.
The fear, anger, frustation, and depression is prevalent everywhere is our society. No one seems to understand it need not be a factor.
I don’t have any religious credo for anyone to teach. I base my beliefs on truth, or as close as I can come. I hold no allegiance to science or religion. Both are fallible systems created by man.
