Pledge of Allegiance?

Great Debates
1

Disclaimer…
Due to the nature of the “United States” and the world at this time, I should probably say…I, in no way at all ever ever ever, would make an attempt to harm anyone, political or otherwise. I am NOT a terrorist, a traitor, or an antidisastablishmentarianist (to a certain extent maybe, but I would never attact the goverment in any way).

Now, to my point…

Starting at the beginning of the school year, we have begun to recite the Pledge of Allegiance every day in second block, to a tiny flag that stands proudly at 4 1/2 inches.
For my very own reasons, I have started to deplict the words assembled to create this national pledge.
For starters, the NAME of our country is an oxymoron…“United States of America”…Nothing about this nation is united. Except maybe a united hate for each other…not to mention other countries that conflict with what we say and do. To pledge my allegiance to something that, in retrospect, doesnt even exist, doesnt seem to be very…patriotic.
Secondly, “…One nation under God…” That should say enough…We are NOT in ANY WAY a nation under God. We have a Christian president. So what? The 10 Commandments were removed in Alabama (or just moved to a back room, out of sight), we cant say public prayers at football games, talk about God or religion in school to an extent…What next? Our country was formed on a religious base, with God in mind…Religion was the entire reason people came to the Americas…For FREEDOM OF RELIGION. Now we cant even have that. I understand the first ammendment says that we cant have God and State put together, but if our entire history and creation is based on religion, why would that ammendment be written? And what about our rights? Freedom of religion? Where did that go? Straight through the vandalized and smashed political window.
Lastly, “…with Liberty and Justice for all.” Utter crap. Complete and utter crap. Liberty? Justice? When? Where? How? For whom? The beautiful? The famous? The rich? The ones that can afford the good lawyers? The social ones who know the right people? The lucky ones that have the stars in their skies the day of the trial? What about the other ones? The people who are wrongfully accused? Killed for no reason. The innocent killed in warfare? The people shot because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time? The ones that work every day of their lives and STILL cant afford to feed and cloth themselves, or their children? They die. But maybe THAT is the definition of liberty and justice for all.

So I dont say the pledge. Why say something I dont belive? Why should I say things I dont mean? Why should I lie? Maybe we should ask the political leaders of the country the same question. I doubt they could answer with the truth.

2

Ignoring your post, I’ll just say this… I am DAMN glad that somewhere they are saying the Pledge of Allegiance!

3

If you don’t believe it, then that is a personal thing for you. I get tired of the “I don’t believe in the Pledge” crap. I hate digging up the standard cliche, but if you can find a better country to live in, go there. It only costs a plane ticket and we don’t restrict people on leaving the country forever. If you think it’s better, good for it. I’m happy for you if you find/found a better life where you can mouth off at will. You don’t have to love America, but if you hate it so much, find a better place. A couple hundred bucks and you have a new life where you don’t have to put up with such B.S.

4

Why should a person find a better place if they hate the place they live in?

What if they hate things aboout it because they care about it? Surely if a person doesn’t care about a country then they won’t be that bothered about what is wrong with it.
And what if they can’t afford to move?

5

So, you live in Texas(tough noogies, kid).

You have to recite the pledge. You’re still in High School or lower. Tough it out. Your freedom is just around the corner.
You don’t say the pledge. Fine. You don’t have to. It’s stil a free county. I wouldn’t either if I felt that way.

By the way, you don’t “deplict” things, you “depict” them.

Stick around. You’re about to get transported. GD or BBQ, here we come.

6

Okay, so only people who never critisise what they see as faults or weaknesses in the USA love America? You should only stay if you’re willing to be blindly devoted and never question or critisise anything? To question anything is to be /against/ America and to /hate/ it?

Black and white. With you or against you.

I’m glad I live in a country where I can slag off my government, my prime minister, government policies, the behaviour of segments of society and the weather without someone telling me I’m being ‘Un-English’. Part of loving your country is wanting to improve it, isn’t it?

7

I would say that Not slagging off the country (in England) would be ‘Un-English’ We English are proudly anti-establishment.

8

Is that why you have a monarchy?

:smiley:

9

Yes - one more thing to moan about :wink:

10

I may be wading in waters too deep for my intelect here - but isn’t a monarchy theoretically a tyranical thing, and therefore it’s people are likely to be anti-establishment.

Or something.

11

What next indeed.

I was kicked out of high school because I, being an Atheist, didn’t think it was right to say “one nation under god”.

They said “You HAVE to say it”.
I said “No I don’t”.
They said “then go home until you CAN say it”.

Nice freedom of religion in a public school funded by taxpayer money.

12

Personally, I find statements like that very UN-American.

You don’t move because you hate the colour of your walls. You paint them.

If you hate the USA, then do something to fix it. Complain, scream, yell, make signs, block traffic, make websites, write letters, inform people, get a new law passed, write a punk rock (or hippy/folk) song, and make a general large amount of noise.

THAT is the true American way.

13

Actually, the Supreme Court of the land ruled that you can’t be required to recite the Pledge of Allegiance – sixty years ago! Seven, if that is the only reason that you were kicked out of school, then you might want to consider contacting the American Civil Liberties Union. (But as a former teacher, I doubt that you were permanently expelled for that reason.)

Ah! But the really cool countries won’t let us in!

Hey! Welcome to SDMB! I like it when people feel passionately about issues like this. We agree on some points and disagree on others.

I believe that God is so big that nothing that we do in any way limits the Power. The Ten Commandments haven’t been consigned to a backroom in Alabama. They are in churches and homes across the land. That is where they belong. Removing the Ten Commandments from public buildings helps to insure this right for you: ** You will not be forced by the government to abide by the religious laws of a religion other than your own.** We are a nation of many faiths and it is really important to protect religious freedom for everyone. You won’t see the Ten Commandments featured in a courthouse, but you won’t see the principles of Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, Wicca, Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, Shinto, Islam, etc. either.

You can’t say public prayers at football games, but doesn’t God hear silent prayers just as well? Again, this protects your religious freedom; it doesn’t undermine it.

The idea that our founding fathers were all Christians is a common misconception. Our creation and history is not based on religion. You still have all of your religious rights that you’ve ever had. But so does everyone in a multi-cultural neighborhood. So your religious rights stop where their religious rights begin. Knowing where that line is can be difficult and perplexing.

Do you want religious rights only for Christians? for Jews?

BTW, I’m in agreement with you on the Pledge. I love my country, but my allegiance is to something greater.

14

OK, you piqued my interest.

This seems blatently illegal to me. Not that I don’t believe some school did this, because there are many “officials” of our government who do illegal things all the time, but this seems especially blatant.

This is the exact thing the constitution protects us against: the abuse of power by our own government officials.

Did you or your parents not try to sue the school or the school district? This seems like the exact sort of thing that the ACLU would jump all over to provide the legal help to do so.

As long as I’m posting anyways, I suppose we shouldn’t just ignore some of the outrageous statements in the OP:

.
This is so wrong…
I don’t agree that our country was founded on “freedom of religion.” It is more accurate to say it was founded on FREEDOM. True, if you are talking about The Pilgrims specifically, they came because they were persecuted religiously. Many others who came here were not. But the influence of the Pilgrims into the constitution is that they wanted to make sure that the government would not tell people what religion to follow or believe in. That is why the constitution says that the government cannot establish or promote any religion. That is why you cannot “say public prayers at football games, talk about God or religion in school to an extent…”

On preview, I see that Zoe has echoed some of these sentiments, so I’ll stop here.

I imagine this will be moved to Great Debates in short order…

15

OK, you piqued my interest.

This seems blatently illegal to me. Not that I don’t believe some school did this, because there are many “officials” of our government who do illegal things all the time, but this seems especially blatant.

This is the exact thing the constitution protects us against: the abuse of power by our own government officials.

Did you or your parents not try to sue the school or the school district? This seems like the exact sort of thing that the ACLU would jump all over to provide the legal help to do so.

As long as I’m posting anyways, I suppose we shouldn’t just ignore some of the outrageous statements in the OP:

.
This is so wrong…
I don’t agree that our country was founded on “freedom of religion.” It is more accurate to say it was founded on FREEDOM. True, if you are talking about The Pilgrims specifically, they came because they were persecuted religiously. Many others who came here were not. But the influence of the Pilgrims into the constitution is that they wanted to make sure that the government would not tell people what religion to follow or believe in. That is why the constitution says that the government cannot establish or promote any religion. That is why you cannot “say public prayers at football games, talk about God or religion in school to an extent…”

On preview, I see that Zoe has echoed some of these sentiments, so I’ll stop here.

I imagine this will be moved to Great debates in short order…

16

Do you really God’s gonna be mad at you because you can’t pray out loud at a football game?

Apart from anything else, of all the squillions of meaningful human interactions occurring on earth at any given second, I’d say (although granted I am not omniscient) that God is unlikely to be paying a great deal of attention to a high school football game…

Parte deux- the Pilgrims did certainly not come to the US to establish laws embodying freedom of religion. The Pilgrims came so they could have a place where they were free to persecute everyone ELSE. Anyone who wasn’t an (Anglican) Puritan in 17th-century Massachussetts was quite likely to end up on a gibbet. It was William Penn and other later immigrants who established the tradition of the free exercise of religion in the New World.

17

Zoe & richardb: I’ll just answer you both in one go.

I did in fact get kicked out of a Seattle Public School (Garfield High School) for not saying the pledge. They said I had to, I said I didn’t, they kicked me out because I wouldn’t back down. Of course, the official reason was disruption. In fact, this was also the meeting where the school administrator said, and I quote, “you white boys think you can just do anything you want”

My father was called to the school over it and they said if I can return to class and recite the pledge like everyone else, I can return. But I’m out until then.

A few weeks later I returned but I swore I would never say the pledge again, and I haven’t.

Within a few weeks after that my father moved me to a different school.

18

Regarding the religious issue - banning people from praying to their chosen diety in certain public places is not freedom. Christians /should/ be allowed to pray to their God aloud in football grounds, or schools if they want to. So should Muslims, Jews, Wiccans, etc.

Banning the expression of beliefs in case it offends other beliefs is the theological equivalent of making everyone third class instead of making everyone first class. You can level up or down - restricting people’s rights to practice their faith when the practice harms no-one else is levelling down, in my opinion.

If you can’t hear someone pray aloud without melting, or flying into a rage, or feeling ‘repressed’ - you’ve got problems. Most Christians, Muslims, Jews and Wiccans I know are perfectly capable of withstand the ‘test of faith’ involved in knowing not everyone believes the same thing they do! There is a clear and obvious /difference/ between people trying to force their religion on others and people just practising their faith.

19

I was made to say the pledge when I was a child in Texas in the early '70s. I’m English.

I have to say, to an outsider it really does look like a bizarre thing. Are there any other (non-dictatorial) countries that have a similar practice?

Also bizarre is the kneejerk “go and find somewhere else to live” reaction to a valid criticism of the OP’s country’s peculiar ritual. Good grief!

Wasn’t it phased out anyway and then re-established under the auspices of McCarthyism anyway? I believe from a previous thread here that the “under God” bit was added to root out Communists.

20

Sorry I don’t have time now to look up cites, but I am sure that the original pledge did not include the words “under god.” If my memory serves correctly, the pledge was written by a minister directly after the Civil War as a means to foster national unity after everyone had spent several years being violently anti-unity (either against the Union itself on the part of the Confederacy, or against the secessionist states on the part of the Northerners).

The words “under god” were added by an act of congress in 1954 (I believe), as jjimm states, “to root out Communists.” It was useless then, and it is unconstitutional then and now, although it may never be ruled so. But that is a different debate.

To MetalDog, although I am not a lawyer or an expert, my understanding is that following the constitution does not mean “banning people from praying to their chosen diety in certain public places.” That is allowed under freedom of religion.

What is prohibited is the government sponsoring or promoting any religion. A public school is run by the government. Teachers are officials of the government. As benign as you think it may be, if the teacher leads the class in any kind of prayer or religious practice of any kind, that puts the stamp of government sponsorship on that practice or belief. As much as you may want to say that individuals are free to not participate, to the mind of an impressionable youngster who has been raised to believe in a different religion, or not to believe at all, or whatever, the entire class doing something they are choosing to be the only one declining to participate in can be a daunting experience. Other students ridiculing them on the playground for not practicing what everyone else does can be intimidating. We may not be able to legislate what predjudices individuals may have, but we can make sure that the Government does not sponsor or promote any religion by not allowing schools to lead prayers, or courthouses to post Biblical passages, etc.

If no one complains, any “government” in the US can get away with breaking any law they want. That is the way the US justice system works. That is why segregation lasted so long, until people sued to end discriminatory practices, and that is why prayers in school lasted as long as they did. But just because so many schools were populated soley by Christians for so many years who did not complain about publicly-led prayers, that does not make it right, or justify continuing an unconstitutional practice because traditionally it’s always been that way and it never hurt anyone!

If it were ever ruled that some form of school-sponsored religious artifact were allowable (or a courthouse were allowed to maintain a religious monument), then what’s to stop other government entities from promoting their own religion, perhaps more agressively? If you were transferred by your job to Utah, for example, would you feel comfortable if your first grade child was surrounded by school-led prayers to Brigham Young as the second coming of Jesus? Or if you went to that district in Oregon where Maharishi Yogi settled with a bunch of followers, would you feel comfortable with your child being forced to listen to school announcements that directly contradicted your religion? Only by strictly prohibiting the government from promoting or sponsoring religion in any form or fashion whatsoever do we all have freedom of religion.