Is Promoting Ethnic Heritage a Good Idea?

Great Debates
1

I had the TV on earlier tonight while I was doing other things and there was a PBS documentary burbling on about South Africa and what caught my ear was when they said that such and such tribe was going to be able to preserve its traditions now that Apartheid was no more. This got me to thinking: Why the heck would they want to do that? I’m not saying people shouldn’t be able to study their past and things like that, but really, should “ethnic heritage” be all that important? The Nazi’s were really big on ethnic heritage, so were the Croats, Serbs, and Moslems. I can’t think of a single instance in human history where promoting ethnic heritage has really been beneficial. I’m not dissing any particular ethnic group, or saying that we shouldn’t study the various histories of people, but are we placing too much emphasis on where people came from and who their ancestors were?

I’ve got a buddy who talks about being Scottish, and he’s said to me, “Yeah, the English really took a bashing in our house.” Uh, let’s see here, you’re family’s been in the US since the 1700’s, so why are you worrying about what the English have done to the Scots? I mean, I’m Irish, Welsh, Swiss, and god knows what else and I really could care less about how the Brits invaded Ireland and took it over. I could bitch and moan about how the Catholic Church destroyed Celtic culture, but I don’t. Why? Because there’s no point in it.

I once had a girlfriend who claimed to be part gypsy and she said she felt oppressed because of it. Why? I wouldn’t have known that she was of gypsy descent unless she told me. To me, it seems that promoting ethnic heritage leads to divisionism and hate, not an understanding that we’re all one species and one planet. Am I missing something here?

2

Plus, the idea of “taking pride in your ethnicity” is only politically correct so long as none of your ancestors were Western European Protestant males…LOL

3

There’s nothing wrong with learning about ethnic heritage. Your objections seem to fall into the same arena as many people’s objections to organized religion… some people simply misinterpret and take it too far.
We’ve (that is, N. Americans of years gone by) tried wiping out ethnic heritage for specific reasons before - with the indians that were here before us. The results of that are for another thread altogether… suffice it to say that it was a bad idea.
Yes, I’ve met people who are in my case Canadian as can be; never even left the country and only speak english, yet have it in their minds and act as though they are of a completely different nationality because their great uncle once spent some time in Italy or something silly. Not everyone is like that; I for one ould like to know why it’s not a good idea for me to go backpacking through South Africa right now, and to learn a bit of culture. So in deciding whether to cover up ethnic heritage careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater!

4

I think the answer to the OP is the answer to the following question: does ethnic heritage serve any justifiable purpose?

I have a hard time seeing that this is the case.

Certainly it is a fine idea. Cultural existence and ethnic pride are two disparate ideas. Any particular reason that ethnic pride serves people well? Not that I often like to fall on utilitarian arguments, but I find them most convincing with respect to large populations.

Does it mean anything to “be Italian?” Gay? Black? Catholic? What does it mean? What does it mean to be proud of that?

I dunno. I think people should take pride in the acts they seem to have control over. Everything else is asking for trouble.

Ethnic pride takes the following form in a pluralistic nation: “I am XXX. You cannot judge me because I am XXX. I can judge myself because I am XXX.”

Uh, ok. Can I coin a term here? Ethnic pride = social solipsism. Or something.

5

There is a big difference between ethnic pride (Kiss me, I’m Scottish) and ethnocentricism (If it’s nae Scottish, it’s CRAP!–pace Mike Myers). It’s possible to cherish the traditions of your own ethnic group and at the same time recognize that other folks cherish their own traditions. Liking tamales does not mean you have to hate kimchi or hummus. I agree with the OP that dragging up ethnic feuds and bring them here to the US is an extremely bad idea, but that’s not the same as remembering one’s ancestors and one’s identity, which is partly shaped by one’s ethnicity. Every group has its traditions; the key is to accept differences and not try to rank them as superior or inferior to your own.

The crime rate in South Africa, particularly in the cities, is extremely high, so paying attention to your personal safety would be a good idea.

To me, gay pride does not mean I’m superior to anyone; it means that I am just as good as anyone. It means I don’t deserve to feel bad about myself because I love someone of the same gender. It means I can hold my head up as just one segment of the spectrum of the human rainbow.

6

I dunno gobear, I simply have a hard time not seeing the difference between passively accepting that the culture one lives with can impact one’s worldview and actively seeking out “one’s” culture.

Eh. This has nothing to do with any particular person’s ethnicity, though.

I am a heterosecual caucasian male in his mid-twenties who is not ashamed of who he is. Does this mean I have gay pride? :stuck_out_tongue: If we consider pride to mean “not a method for judgement” then I remain utterly confused at bringing it up in the first place.

If its no big deal, then why make a big deal out of it? I do not feel that using culture as a means of identification is a positive thing to do. I feel using culture as a means of identification can only serve bigotry, racism, and other unmerited stereotypes while not actually creating anything worthwhile (wince it was already admitted that one culture is not more worthy than another).

7

Erislover, I understand where you are coming from, but I think your empathy needs tuning. You may not wish to celebrate the foods, music, and culture of your ethnic group, but others do. And this comment

beggars belief.

Has anyone ever told you that you were an abomination because you like girls?

Have relatives barred you from bringing your girlfriend to family events because you disgust them?

Have your relationships been made illegal in a majority of the 50 states and specifically declared illegal by an act of Congress? Ever heard of the Defense of Marriage Act, sport?

Have been barred from giving blood or joining the military because you sleep with women?

No, then you have no idea of the insults and discrimination gay men and women face every day. For us, gay pride is a celebration of who we are, a refusal to bow down to people who hate us for existing.

8

Given: That humans can always screw up any activity they undertake.

Question: Is there any reason why I should not try to discover the legends, songs, stories, foods, beliefs, etc. of my ancestors? Should I look forward with eager anticipation to a world of Disney, 'N Sync, Grisham, McDonalds, Taco Bell, U.S.A. Today, and similar signs of the homogenization of culture?

9

Getting touchy about culture are we? That’s a shock.

My ability to appreciate culture, cultural diversity, and social trends is in no way hindered by attempting to seek some personal identity through culture. I find that looking toward culture for personal identity is a disenchanting illusion that leads toward open hostility.

I do not beling to an “ethnic group.” I can enjoy food most commonly found in italy historically without requiring some inner sense of identifying with or being italian. In fact, no one at that restaraunt needs to be italian for me to enjoy it. In fact, Italy could sink into the ocean tomorrow and I could still appreciate the culture.

tom: I don’t know what you are supposed to do. I for one embrace both without resigning myself to either. I simply do not see the utility of ethnic pride, nor how ethnic pride could not be a clever guise for bigotry. I mean, please think for just a moment about it.

“I am a male.” Assumption: he has a penis. His name is probably not spelled “Jill.”
“I am an African American.” Assumption: skin tone is relatively darker than northern europeans. Natural head hair is probably curly.

Utility of the distinction: 0, IMO, as a means of identity. I am neither my penis, my sexuality, my hair, nor my name. Being American has subjected me to certain things; telling someone I am an American is either functionally meaningless or begs a stereotype. I subscribe to neither camp.

10

The problem isn’t so much ethnic groups feeling superior to one another (although some certinly do), it’s that we divide the world up between “my people” and everybody else. Why should you have more affinity for someone you never met, someone who died before you were born, whose problems are not your problems, than your classmates, coworkers, and neighbors?

11

Because they are people I never met, who died before I was born. Sorry, but we all have a triage of the heart. You cannot seriously tell me that you could, in a life or death situation, choose to save me over your lover or child. You’ve never met me, I’m just words in the ether. How could you honestly say that my welfare is as important to you as your mother’s, or your baby’s, or your best friend’s?

12

gobear,

Am i to understand now that you are only friends with and have relations with people who you identify as your own culture? otherwise this comment is way off topic.

13

Without our cultural heratige we would all be the same. I know that heritage is not the only thing that sets us apart from others, but it is a big part of it. Every experience you have changes who you are, and the culture you absorb through your parents and extended family shapes who you will become.

I feel that it is very important to understand the past, to know where I came from, and that is why I listened to my father’s stories, visited the country of my birth, etc. I plan to pass these experiences on to my children, not to force them not to identify as Canadian, but to give them an idea of thier heritage and let them know who they are.

I don’t really know, but I would venture a guess that in Canada it is less frowned upon to hold onto one’s heritage than it is in the US. If this is in fact the case, it hasn’t caused us any significant problems. Take that as you will.

14

What we’re looking at here is the cultural trend known as “assimilation”

While some immigrants filled ethnic neighbrohoods and stayed in small cultural and linguistic enclaves, it was common among immigrants to North America in the late 19th and most of the 20th centuries to drop all the baggage of their native country as soon as they hit the shore. Some anglicized their names, most refused to speak their native language around the house and insisted their children speak only English. Some, like my father’s family, pretty much dropped any identification with “the old country” whatsoever (my father always responded to his children’s requests to learn more about their heritage with the same answer: “If we had liked it there, we would have stayed.”

The problem is, it doesn’t work too well in real life. I’m 49 years old and people still ask “what kind of name is that?” Mrs. Kunilou, with her slanted eyes, yellowish skin and straight, black hair, still has to deal with people who are surprised she speaks English so well (it’s because she was born and raised in Cleveland, dammit!)

After awhile my sisters and I (and pretty much all of wife’s family, for that matter) decided that if other people wouldn’t ignore our background, then why in heaven’s name should we? For that matter, how can we. Obviously it’s a part of who we are, and we have nothing to be ashamed about.

15

You’ll probably not believe this, but there was a time when recalling one’s heritage was considered cute and fun. People got all dressed up on certain days in native garb in certain areas and had celebrations from the old country and everyone was invited to join in. Like Oktoberfest and St. Patrick’s Day. Some areas recalled their pioneer roots with Hodowns and Barn dances and some recalled festive occasions from their original countries and had big feasts but when it was all over, everyone was one nation again and working and living together.

After the TV program ‘Roots’ came out, it all went horribly, horribly wrong. It started with the Afro-American search for nnative identity and suddenly everyone was related to an African prince or princess, followed by African dress and hair styles appearing, the African names and it just took off from there. Now, suddenly, it is everyone’s RIGHT to cling to one’s native heritage, here in the ever progressive United States and we have groups ranging from African American Heritage to Native Eskimo History Education Buildings.

Suddenly, these fun days are serious things that you start lawsuits and fights over and your heritage is better than his heritage and your people could whip his people and their people were the smartest and yours were the most violent and so on and so forth. He dresses up in Nairobi Robes and you wear the Tradition Serape, she wears the Traditional Muslim Heavy Clothing and He wears the Traditional Jewish Black Brimmed hat.

What’s next? You dig for roots in the dirt like your ancestors and he slices the sheep’s throat with a sharpened stick? They dig bugs out of rotted trees to eat while someone else chews a tuber and spits the cud into a pot to ferment into beer? She spins wool and fiber into thread to hand weave a dress of bland colors and they dig holes to crap into like their ancestors did?

I find it all ludicrous. Everyone here is American. Who gives a flying f**k over heritage? My ancestors come from several nations and each nation has good and bad things about them but I find no reason to dress in native dress, do native dances, learn the native language nor have a desire to consume the native foods.

I am an American. Period. I was born and raised here and I take pride in that fact.

I enjoy cultural differences but I despise it when it goes to the extent that these differences become so great that people deliberately try to isolate themselves from everyone else in this nation because that is not what America is for. Like in sections of China Town they refuse to speak English and still cling to the Old Ways and in some neighborhoods if you aint from a certain country, you ‘aint s**t.’ In Miami, you need to learn Spanish to live and get along there because of all of the Cubans clinging to their heritage and in some areas of some big cities you still find men and women dressing like they are still in Pakistan or someplace and speaking their own language mostly.

It used to be fun and something to admire years back, but now it seems every ethnic group wants special rights and it has gotten to be a real pain in the ass. Ethnic stores, ethnic clothing, ethnic places of worship, ethnic meals in public schools, ethnic homes and on and on until you wonder why they came here in the first place.

16

As a white hetero female of multi ethnic decent - Ethnic pride always seemed a little silly to me. Sure, I can make a mean lasagna, but that’s about it. I’m also Dutch, German, Czech, Romania, and a little Romany (Gypsy) in the Romanian.

My husband is three completely unreleated things, meaning my daughter is decended from at least seven different ethnic groups - pretty darn American (and hubby is decended from John and John Q. Adams, making her a DAR candidate).

But, my son is a Korean adoptee. So we make an effort to share his culture of origin (boy, does that sound PC or what?) with him. This is two fold - one, we took him out of his culture, the least we can do is make sure he has some idea what it was. But most importantly (as Kunilou was getting at), people who look at him without us see an Asian person. Asian adoptees overwhelmingly talk about how they see themselves as white, but the world sees them as Asian, and how they in turn see themselves reflected back as Asian. This is, apparently, a very difficult thing to experience, but adult adoptees say its easier if they were given a good, healthy understanding of their heritage. This isn’t about “Being Korean is better than being White.” This is about “Being Korean is OK.”

So, my son will be able to walk in the St. Patrick’s day parade, proudly carrying his Dad’s Irish last name if he wants. But he will also, if he feel he wants, be able to participate in the Moon festival. As will my very White daughter who had her first birthday pictures taken in her hanbok as well.

And, Tuckerfan, as a “little tiny bit” Romany, I understand where your girlfriend was coming from. I don’t feel personally oppressed, but I’ve more keenly felt the oppression of others. Discussions of the Holocaust as a purely Jewish event are sure to set me off, for instance. Even your use of the word “supposedly” in describing her hints at something - you wouldn’t say she was “supposedly Swedish.” If she claimed she was Swedish, you’d buy it, you wouldn’t wonder if she was just Norweigian and lying about it.

17

I am not quite sure why anyone would want to DENY their heritage in this day and age. I see it as a plus. Being bi-lingual and/or understanding parts of another culture is a bad thing? It makes one less of an American? This is coming from a white bread no crust assimilated American that doesn’t know where the vast majority of his ancestors came from. I grew up in California where we had Asians of many different stripes, Mexicans, Greeks, Sikhs, Italians, etc. It was great.

My wife is a Chinese national, my daughter is a dual national. When we relocate back to the US, I am not going to encourage my daughter to forget how to speak Chinese, give up Chinese food, deny her Chinese heritage, use only a fork, ignore her Chinese speaking relatives. That would be to deny half of her heritage. That would belittle her mother and mother’s family (You’re my grandmother only if you speak English). I do not think that is a good thing. If my daughter chooses to deny her heritage, it would be her choice.

One can be born and raised in American, but for example still speak Arabic, be a good Muslim, and be critical of certain US policies. That does not make one a “bad” American. It’s part of what makes America great. Anything else reeks of xenophobia.

18

But why should being a Muslim make one more likely to criticize US policies? (this was implied anyway) It seems that objectivity has been the first casualty of multicultralism. Maintaining links to your cultural heritage is fine, but don’t take it so far that it distorts your worldview and becomes a source of bias. Don’t get angry vicariously while ignoring the facts because someone from the same culture is seen on the news having a tough time.

19

J248974, your post reads as though you were saying that celebrating ethnic heritage was great, so long as the ethnicities involved were European. Then other people wanted to celebrate different ethnicities, and it all went downhill from there.

Is that what you meant?

20

No. That’s not what I meant.

I meant that it used to be fun when people did not take the stuff seriously but today, they take it far too seriously. It’s like they must promote their heritage or become something less than an American. Actually, some promote their heritage so much that it’s like they resent having to be American.

Like, in those areas of China Town where they refuse to speak English and live like they did in China, complete with traditional values and dress. Whyinthehell did they come here in the first place if they’re going to do that? There were sections in the North Eastern states where if you were not Irish, you weren’t s**t and there still are. Go into Miami and you are in Cuba and many of the people will flat tell you that they hate living here.

It all used to be fun and a bit titillating to have native festivals a couple of times a year, to see native clothing, watch native dances and eat native foods and when it was over, everyone was back to normal but now, THEIR ethnicity comes before everything else.

The American Indians capitalize on their ethnic roots as often as they can, including demanding and getting ethnic schools, tribal police and gambling.