Is psychiatry dishonest? Is it better for everyone if keeps faking diagnostic assurance?

Interesting article in Slate (see link below) re this new book about the DSM and psychiatric diagnostic practice in general. The article addresses the question of what the real limits are of what we know about the human mind, and epistemologically should we be honest about the limits of that knowledge, or just keep faking assurance in manufactured diagnoses because it makes us feel more in control?

Is Psychiatry Dishonest? - And if so, is it a noble lie?

Can (or should) psychiatry be straightforward about the limits of it’s knowledge without losing it’s necessary power?

The article is filled with stupid shit but this was the stupidest single claim.

Look just ignore the political jab.

I know someone who is a hoarder, there is no doubt in my mind it is a serious mental disorder/disease. It has reduced them to a sick below human lifestyle, they use diapers because the toilet can’t be repaired, and then HOARD THE DIAPERS!
They have lost MILLIONS in actual cash money to this disease, they are maintaining multiple houses full of hoard and even storage units. It occupies their entire day.

I’d like the good doctor to come with me to their houses, and make a joke about hoarding.

I think the point is, (to use your example) is “hoarding” a valid or useful diagnostic criteria by itself with a cluster of symptoms that allows or enables effective treatments to be applied or is it simply the manifestation of behavior caused by other underlying disorders? Hoarding as a behavior is very real, but it is actually a disorder caused by specific underlying mental dysfunctions or can the behavior of hoarding be caused by a variety of mental dysfunctions that manifest themselves as hoarding behavior? The distinction is critical if were are going to say we have a handle on identifying that diagnosis.

How, exactly, is that distinction critical? If hoarding disorder is “elementary” or if it is derived from other, underlying mental illness: so what?

Can it be treated? Do medications help? Does cognitive therapy help?

As far as I can tell, psychiatry is still in a fairly primitive state of development: there’s so much that nobody knows. There are meds that seem to help. They help some people, some. They fail sometimes (sometimes horribly.) Counseling helps some people…some. It’s good, simply to have someone to talk to! That alone – simply hand-holding! – is probably one of the more subtle benefits to psychiatry.

I don’t believe any modern psychiatrist is under any delusions. I think they know that this is still a “stone knives and bearskins” era. Nobody knows how the mind works when it works properly! When it malfunctions – and it can malfunction in so very many ways – there isn’t a great deal that anyone can do.

Let’s let science do what science does best: make progress. Let’s continue to experiment with meds and other therapy.

The idea that it’s all a fraud, a hoax, or deliberate pseudo-science is, in my opinion, hostile bullshit. That’s creationist logic, not science.

Hostile or not some would say that the idea that it’s currently more pseudo-science than science is the actual true rigorous scientific perspective, and the creationist, magical realism end of things is believing that psychiatry is an actual science (at this point).

I’ve tried to figure out what this mass of gibberish means, and I’m just going to give up and use plain language.

Do I think keeping a newspaper archive by itself makes you as hoarder? No, just like being shy doesn’t mean you’re autistic or experiencing grief or sadness doesn’t mean you have clinical depression. I haven’t read the DSM5, I find it hard to believe it literally has one single diagnostic criteria for hoarding. It is likely one of dozens, all ranked on severity and impact on the patient’s life.

Do I think this system is flawed? Hell yes, it relies on the experience and wisdom of the practitioner to make the call and inevitably some bad calls will be made. It is only designed as a basic guide for mental health professionals, not a magic book to be read literally.

You do know mistakes and bad calls still occur in physical medicine right?

I agree with you that psychiatry is flawed, but the arguments in the article something I’d expect from a troll not an experienced mental health professional. He sounds like a rank fool really, he knows very well his arguments are spurious.

Well I agree with you that it is far from perfect or ideal, but to pretend it is pseudo-science on the level of shit like Orgon Energy is ridiculous. You do realize there are entire journals devoted to studies and papers on psychiatry/psychology? Its all bullshit, every single bit?

What do you propose to replace it with? You can’t deny that mental illness is a very real issue that deeply effects and even kills people right?

Honestly I’m not sure of your reading ability at this point. If you actually read the article it should be clear the author is not pulling these points from his rear end, but is mainly referencing the arguments and observations made by the author Psychotherapist Gary Greenberg in “The Book Of Woe” where he discusses the problems psychiatry faces.

I’m just gonna say the article is BS only because it sounds dangerously close to that crap Tom Cruise used to say about psychiatry years ago…

Again this is not a Scientology conspiracy making these observations, this is a Psychotherapist who wrote a book critiquing the diagnostic paradigm of his own field.

It’s OK to beat the conclusions of the book referenced by the article to death, but this is not some dilettante making these observations, it’s someone inside the profession.

And he makes several very valid points, however he also makes some dumb points. Maybe he was trying to simplify for mass media, he also jumps all over the place.

Do I think corruption is rampant in the psycho-pharmaceutical industry? I’ve seen several arguments that make solid cases it is.

This is true, but at the same time kind of a non-starter. Your culture creates biases in you, good to keep in mind.

Psychiatrists can make mistakes, even go against all professional advice(like diagnosing your own children).

Again the DSM doesn’t and never did work like a laundry list of symptoms, you had to have the symptoms and have major impairment in daily functioning. This is basic info.

Listen read these if you’re interested in the DSM.

http://www.psychiatry.org/practice/dsm/dsm-frequently-asked-questions

Also the comments on the article are both smart and rip apart the stupid. You won’t find the meaning of life in the DSM, however it might be used to help you if you’re having a problem that is ruining your life.

My post was tongue in cheek. Not to be taken seriously.

I am interested in this debate though.

Since the days of Thomas Szasz, there has been a thread of so-called anti-psychiatrists in and around the profession. The fact that one therapist is part of that tradition is no more significant than one scientist believing in Biblical creationism. Nor even that there is a small minority of anti-psychiatrists.

But the catastrophising arguments alluded to in the OP are overstated. It is true that psychiatry has limitations. But we know that through the application of science by psychiatrists. To make a contrast with physics, physics advances hand in hand with increasing sophistication in measurement devices. From exposed film in the late 19th century to the LHC allows for the linear progression of improved knowledge. The same is true for other branches of medicine, from medical imaging to pathology. There are no really comparable measurement advances in psychiatry. But that does not mean it is a fraud.

One problem for psychiatry is the difficulty of demonstrating test-retest reliability for diagnoses to the same degree as other parts of the medical profession. There are always boundary cases for pathologists at the limits of detection no matter how sophisticated the equipment is. That is why they study for so long and get paid the big bickies. But if you give a hundred random cases to multiple pathologists, the chances of their diagnoses matching are quite high.

It’s less so for psychiatrists, but that does not mean psychiatry is useless, just that things can be harder. There is no regular appearance of breakthrough improvements in measurement, like the transition from XRays to CT scans to MRIs that each radically improve the margin of detectability. For psychiatry, there are just slow increments in tools that are conceptually not very different from what has emerged in the past - patient interviews, questionnaires of various sorts, and so on. And patients get interview fatigue, their mood changes between interviews, and so on, all of which adversely impacts on test-retest reliability.

Psychiatrists also have a problem with construct validity. It’s not at all challenging for a physical doctor to satisfactorily conceive of HIV as an exogenous pathogen causing AIDS, and thinking of AIDS consequently as a disease in an otherwise healthy body. Doing the same with mental illness is much more fraught. In what sense is schizophrenia a “disease”? Is the construct of disease only metaphorical in that context? What causal implications does considering it a disease have? What metaphysical and existential implications does such a construct have? Is it possible to conceptually differentiate the “disease” process from the mind itself? These are not trivial questions for psychiatric nosology.

Nevertheless, it is possible to identify people who are plainly mad, and do a much better than chance categorisation of them. There are drugs available to treat them. The fact that drugs do not always work is true of physical medicine as well. Doesn’t mean that all drugs are placebos. And the psych drugs are rigorously tested according to principled protocols the same as physical medicine drugs.

And there is steady improvement in understanding the heritability of mental illness and hence its biochemical origins.

We all understand the cultural pressure to medicalise character flaws, like “sex addiction”, and the temptations and drivers to overdiagnose and over treat. Those temptations exist in physical medicine as well. Remember when the physical doctors whipped up a fever about the plague of RSI until psychiatrists pointed out it followed exactly the same patterns as previous fusses like writer’s cramp, the introduction of steel nibbled pens, and the like?

These things are questions of degree. The fact that psychiatrists must, in a sense, look through a darker glass than some other parts of the profession does not mean that the sky is falling nor that it’s all pseudoscience.

He’s not a psychiatrist, so it’s not his own field. Notably, for instance, one of his big criticisms is over-medication. This may or may not be a valid complaint, but when he makes that claim, it’s worth bearing in mind that he can’t prescribe drugs and is in competition with those who can.

This reminds me of a documentary I watch some time ago.

The documentary was set up like a reality show. In it they had a group of people with disorders and a group of people with out disorders (The control group). They also had a panel of pyschiatrist.

The object of the experiment:

The psychiatrist had to figure out who had a disorder and who didn’t.

The folks with disorders objective was to make it through the week fooling the psychiatrists that they DO NOT have a disorder.

After it was all said and done the psychiatrist did pretty well. Despite the fact that the participants were trying to fool them into thinking they were normal folks.

If I recall correctly, the psychiatrist were on the mark with all the disorder folks (Except for one). Their biggest screw up was that they diagnosed a few of the regular folks with having a disorder when they indeed did not.

(The regular folks were not trying to fool the psychiatrist into thinking they were crazy. They were acting normal.)

I quit reading after the author misrepresented the symptoms of Generalized Anxiety Disorder, presenting only the first two specific criteria under C, and not the full list. This is a deceitful way to play to the lay person’s sense that disorder criteria are constructed to be overly inclusive, to pathologize normative behaviors.

An article I read last year featured quotes from purported psychologists saying that oppositional defiant disorder is just a child saying no to his or her parent. The article also described one of the symptoms as “Actively refuses to comply with majority’s requests.” This is a complete bullshit statement. The symptom is “often actively refuses to comply with adults requests or rules.” The misrepresentation turned the symptom from an undesirable behavior into sort of a desirable, non-conformist rebel kind of behavior.

The real question is how well these symptoms work empirically. If they were pathologizing normative behavior, when the symptoms are used they should identify about 50% of the population.

If they are not identifying valid conditions, then people who meet the criteria at one point should be no more likely than other people to meet criteria again later in their life.

If they are not identifying valid conditions but are instead pathologizing normative behavior, the people who are identified as meeting criteria should have the same kind of outcomes as anyone else. Their outcomes should be normative ones, right?

What you see when the symptoms are empirically tested is that in fact, only small proportions of the population are identified with a given disorder, which may range from something like 0.5% for a disorder like selective mutism or 1% for schizophrenia, to 6 or 7% for ADHD or 9% for oppositional defiant disorder. An estimate for the prevalence of depression in a single year is about 6 to 7%. So it is hard to argue that the criteria identify normative groups of people.

When criteria are met for a particular disorder, those people are much more likely than the average person to meet criteria again when measured later in time. This is evidence for the reliability of the criteria, and it is further evidence that the disorder criteria are not haphazard collections of items that people in general are likely to meet at any given time.

And in terms of outcomes, people who meet criteria for a disorder are much more likely to experience poorer outcomes than people who do not. This includes higher rates of other psychopathology, poor functioning in social, occupational and other settings, poor health outcomes, and higher rates of morbidity and mortality. These outcomes are also to some extent disorder specific. For instance, depression places individuals at higher risk for suicidality than anxiety disorders. Individuals with anxiety disorders are, in general, at lower risk for antisocial or aggressive behavior. People with conduct disorder are at greater risk to have a criminal record, to engage in aggressive and antisocial behavior and to show poor functioning in multiple settings than others. People with ADHD are at higher risk for vehicle accidents than others.

Additionally, factor analyses tell us something about the nature of the construction of disorder symptoms. A factor analysis is a way of looking at a bunch of items, determining how much each one is associated with each of the other items in the data set, and identifying whether there are some groups of items that tend to be associated with one another in a different way from other groups of items.

Factor analyses have shown, across researchers and data sets, that the symptoms tend to align with one another in ways that are highly concordant with the diagnostic criteria. This helps to further suggest that the disorder constructs are not willy-nilly amalgams of items.

I am moderately skeptical about how we define Mental Disorder (note- not illness) but I find that DSM is useful for two reasons- people are all singing from the same hymnsheet even if it is the wrong hymn and secondly, it is useful to stop individual and small group diagnoses proliferating. Before DSM any psychiatrist could define any behaviour in any manner; now at least there is a reference point. With its graded diagnostic lists, it is quite possible for skeptics to point out to gung ho pschs that there contention does not meet DSM standards.

Out of curiosity, could you elaborate on this distinction that you pointedly draw here? What is the difference between mental disorder and mental illness?

I would also contend that there is no critical distinction evident in what you’ve written. Could you clarify this, please?

Hoarding is being changed in the DSM5 in that it is being separated out from OCD.

I dont see anything ‘watering it down’ to simply being about old newspaper collections or whatever - “significant clinical distress” is a part of the diagnosis.

Similar to the Generalised Anxiety Disorder critique made by Hentor, its hard to treat the critique sincerely when the specific examples supplied seem to be so inaccurate.

Otara