If you are in situations where questions of respect are important, and where tardiness is generally acknowledged to be a sign of disrespect, and you do not generally have the resources or time available to assess people’s brain function (and who does? ) then I think you can be justified in deciding that someone is disrespectful because they are late. But I don’t think all situations are like these situations. I think a lot aren’t.
[/QUOTE]
It isn’t so much a matter of being in a situation where respect is important. It isn’t the matter of respect that pisses me off. It’s that the other person values her time more than mine, and is unconcerned whether mine is wasted. ‘Disrespectful’ is just a label.
I would never accuse anyone of such behavior unless I knew that they were in fact capable of making appointments. It bugs me to hear a bunch of bullshit excuses when we both know that they can be on time, they just choose not to when it involves me. No one in this thread has claimed that it is impossible to be punctual, only that in some circumstances it is not worth the effort. For me to be told that I am not worth the effort is an insult. I choose not to associate with people who insult me.
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
It’s that the other person values her time more than mine, and is unconcerned whether mine is wasted.
[/QUOTE]
Who gives you the right to assume you understand another’s motivation?
Who gives you the right to ascribe motivation to someone and condemn him for that motivation?
When did you learn to read minds???
How dare anyone do this? How do you allow yourself to do this? Is it not within your comprehension to see that this is unfair, not to mention unreasonable and illogical?
None of us can know another’s mind - hell, half of us cannot describe our own motivations when asked so how dare anyone make these assumptions and consider it fair?
[QUOTE=Frylock]
I also have a policy of not setting appointments with people I don’t think will keep them. In my case, I do this without a thought as to whether they are being respectful toward me or whether their tardiness says anything about their character.
To your post and Kalhoun’s last post I will say: I think it’s turning out to be a matter of how much caution a person thinks they should show in deciding whether to judge someone disrespectful or not. I tend to show a lot of caution (in a large part because the very notion of “respect” is not really one that shows up on my radar very readily, so its going to take alot for me to notice any putative acts of disrespect) but I recognize that others are, due to various circumstances, not in a position to be able to not come to (what would look to me like) “snap judgments” about things like this.
If you are in situations where questions of respect are important, and where tardiness is generally acknowledged to be a sign of disrespect, and you do not generally have the resources or time available to assess people’s brain function (and who does? ) then I think you can be justified in deciding that someone is disrespectful because they are late. But I don’t think all situations are like these situations. I think a lot aren’t.
-FrL-
[/QUOTE]
I don’t think it’s possible to come to a snap judgement. It’s chronic tardiness we’re talking about. A person has to create a pattern of not giving a shit about my time before I’ll call them rude or disrespectful. I agree, the word “respect” is kind of a strange one, but it boils down to whether or not you’re making an effort to join me in the social contract YOU entered into. This isn’t rocket science. I find the “brain damage” excuse to be a cowardly cop out.
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster]
Who gives you the right to assume you understand another’s motivation?
Who gives you the right to ascribe motivation to someone and condemn him for that motivation?
When did you learn to read minds???
How dare anyone do this? How do you allow yourself to do this? Is it not within your comprehension to see that this is unfair, not to mention unreasonable and illogical?
None of us can know another’s mind - hell, half of us cannot describe our own motivations when asked so how dare anyone make these assumptions and consider it fair?
[/QUOTE]
I don’t have to be a mind reader. If she can be on time for other people,she can be on time for me. If she chooses to be late rather that honor her commitment to me, she is placing a greater value on her time than she is on mine. Q.E.D.
[QUOTE=Frylock]
Right: You have further data about them other than simply the fact that they are late alot, and that is what justifies you in not being forgiving of them.
One problem: You said the majority of latesters you know generally think rules don’t apply to them. But what about that minority of latesters you know who don’t think this? Is there some reason you think you shouldn’t be forgiving of them as well?
-FrL-
[/QUOTE]
I very rarely make exceptions for people on this point; however, I am lax about 5-10 minutes late. Most of the people I know who have chronic lateness will call me when they’re running late, apologize, and try to let me know as soon as they realize they’re late.* This is what makes me forgiving of them is that they make an effort to assume that it is their responsibility to let me know if they’re having problems meeting me at the time originally proposed. I also generally tend to aim more for a window of time as opposed to a specific time with these people, and only meet with them when I’m not so busy that waiting about for an hour is an ordeal. By making this form of social contract, the people are acknowledging with me that they have trouble meeting the stricter social contract of being on time (or close to it) almost all the time and are willing to have a relationship of a more restricted sort as a compromise between their problems with time and my need to get things done in a timely manner. Generally it means that they have less opportunities to meet with me than a person who is consistently on time and knows that I often have limited time for meeting with them.
*One of my best friends from college was chronically late, and I understood some of the reasoning behind it. Where he lives does not orient one well to timekeeping, and he was not on any sort of regular schedule, so things were a bit erratic [timewise] to start with. Our social agreement basically amounted to “let’s go do this evening thing on this day, and I’ll call to remind you about it earlier in the day.” This also included him giving me a call when he was just about to leave his house so that I knew I had about 20 minutes to get ready and finish what I was doing before we went anywhere. We saw each other no more often than once a week, but neither of us was dissatisfied with the arrangement and enjoyed each other’s company.
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster]
Who gives you the right to assume you understand another’s motivation?
Who gives you the right to ascribe motivation to someone and condemn him for that motivation?
When did you learn to read minds???
How dare anyone do this? How do you allow yourself to do this? Is it not within your comprehension to see that this is unfair, not to mention unreasonable and illogical?
None of us can know another’s mind - hell, half of us cannot describe our own motivations when asked so how dare anyone make these assumptions and consider it fair?
[/QUOTE]
My time is wasted because they are acknowledging that their end of a social contract is not necessary to be upheld. There is a HUGE difference between coming in late, [after having called me if possible] and apologizing for being more than 15 minutes late and waltzing in as if they were 5 minutes early and that I should be understanding/commend them for their timing. Is it really that difficult to understand that a person’s lateness is infuriating if it’s both consistent and without remorse?
I have every right to assume that a person does not care if they do not show any particular regrets or offer apologies for being habitually late.
[QUOTE=nashiitashii]
I very rarely make exceptions for people on this point; however, I am lax about 5-10 minutes late. Most of the people I know who have chronic lateness will call me when they’re running late, apologize, and try to let me know as soon as they realize they’re late.* This is what makes me forgiving of them is that they make an effort to assume that it is their responsibility to let me know if they’re having problems meeting me at the time originally proposed. I also generally tend to aim more for a window of time as opposed to a specific time with these people, and only meet with them when I’m not so busy that waiting about for an hour is an ordeal. By making this form of social contract, the people are acknowledging with me that they have trouble meeting the stricter social contract of being on time (or close to it) almost all the time and are willing to have a relationship of a more restricted sort as a compromise between their problems with time and my need to get things done in a timely manner. Generally it means that they have less opportunities to meet with me than a person who is consistently on time and knows that I often have limited time for meeting with them.
*One of my best friends from college was chronically late, and I understood some of the reasoning behind it. Where he lives does not orient one well to timekeeping, and he was not on any sort of regular schedule, so things were a bit erratic [timewise] to start with. Our social agreement basically amounted to “let’s go do this evening thing on this day, and I’ll call to remind you about it earlier in the day.” This also included him giving me a call when he was just about to leave his house so that I knew I had about 20 minutes to get ready and finish what I was doing before we went anywhere. We saw each other no more often than once a week, but neither of us was dissatisfied with the arrangement and enjoyed each other’s company.
[/QUOTE]
I dunno…sounds like excuses from them and concessions from you. I don’t understand how someone can live somewhere where they can’t “orient” to timekeeping. Is this a magnetic zone where clocks and watches are rendered useless? Maybe if he got on a regular schedule he wouldn’t be late for appointments! Hello!
What is this about constantly calling and announcing the fact that they’ll be late yet again? Sorry…it doesn’t fly with me. It sounds like you’re bending over backwards to accommodate their rudeness. That’s your choice, but it doesn’t change the fact the they’re the ones being rude.
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster]
Who gives you the right to assume you understand another’s motivation?
Who gives you the right to ascribe motivation to someone and condemn him for that motivation?
[/QUOTE]
Let me further elaborate on this. I make no assertion about motivation. I only describe behavior. My condemnation (another strong word), concerns behavior, not motivation. I don’t give a rat’s ass *why *she thinks her time is more important, only that she does.
[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
That’s your choice, but it doesn’t change the fact the they’re the ones being rude.
[/QUOTE]
I’d have to disagree with you there. If nashiitashii doesn’t think it’s rude, then it isn’t rude. De gustibus non est disputandum …
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
I’d have to disagree with you there. If nashiitashii doesn’t think it’s rude, then it isn’t rude. De gustibus non est disputandum …
[/QUOTE]
I suppose in a one-on-one situation, that would be true. But if nashiitashiiand someone else were waiting on Mr. Late Guy, that could change the situation. If I didn’t care personally, but my husband did, I would still consider it rude.
[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
I dunno…sounds like excuses from them and concessions from you. I don’t understand how someone can live somewhere where they can’t “orient” to timekeeping. Is this a magnetic zone where clocks and watches are rendered useless? Maybe if he got on a regular schedule he wouldn’t be late for appointments! Hello!
What is this about constantly calling and announcing the fact that they’ll be late yet again? Sorry…it doesn’t fly with me. It sounds like you’re bending over backwards to accommodate their rudeness. That’s your choice, but it doesn’t change the fact the they’re the ones being rude.
[/QUOTE]
That specific friend lives in the woods in the middle of nowhere, and when I was in college, he didn’t have a job or take classes. Days blend into each other when I’m on that sort of schedule, and I lose track of time easily when visiting at his house. It does make a difference. Now that he’s got a regular job, he’s much better about timekeeping and is probably never late to work.
I rarely keep friends who call me all the time to say they’re late. Generally their laissez-faire attitude about punctuality coincides with other personality quirks that don’t jive with my rhythm. I rarely, however, make exceptions for people when I’m not the only person waiting; it’s a bit rude to be the last person at a meeting, and be much more than five minutes late.
My sense of what’s rude and what’s not is based on frequency, their willingness to accomodate my need to know what’s going on, and whether their other personality traits conflate or minimize their problem with timekeeping.
This was on pg.4 of this thread:
[QUOTE=QG]
Then they’re drama queens. ‘Damage they can potentially cause’? Puhleeze. At best it’s an inconvenience. People need to get over themselves. Seriously.
[/QUOTE]
People are “drama queens” if they find your chronic lateness rude and annoying? Yeah. Every time you’re late, you’re saying that your time is more important than the person’s you are meeting with. Bottom line.
You have mentioned several times in this tread where certain things “live in your head” as needing a certain amount of time, which you know is the incorrect amount of time. (the workout being 2.5 or 3 hours, etc.) Here’s the problem I have with that: You know that these times are incorrect! You know your workout actually takes 3 hours total. You know that because you’ve written it here several times. So when you plan your day, plan for 3 hours for your workout, not the 2.5 you know isn’t correct. Does your conscious brain have absolutely no say in anything? Really, in combination with the quoted statement, you basically just sound like you don’t care about other people’s time.
[QUOTE=nashiitashii]
That specific friend lives in the woods in the middle of nowhere, and when I was in college, he didn’t have a job or take classes. Days blend into each other when I’m on that sort of schedule, and I lose track of time easily when visiting at his house. It does make a difference. Now that he’s got a regular job, he’s much better about timekeeping and is probably never late to work.
I rarely keep friends who call me all the time to say they’re late. Generally their laissez-faire attitude about punctuality coincides with other personality quirks that don’t jive with my rhythm. I rarely, however, make exceptions for people when I’m not the only person waiting; it’s a bit rude to be the last person at a meeting, and be much more than five minutes late.
My sense of what’s rude and what’s not is based on frequency, their willingness to accomodate my need to know what’s going on, and whether their other personality traits conflate or minimize their problem with timekeeping.
[/QUOTE]
Got it. Thanks for the clarification on the woods-dweller.
Man, I hate reading this thread. I’m chronically late, and I have made resolutions to change that silly trait time and time again, in vain. It’s hard to read hear how much other people are insulted by my tardiness. That never was the intention, in fact, I hate it when people have waited for me, I wished they’d just go ahead with whatever they were planning to do.
I’m never angry if someone is late to me, so it is hard to imagine the anger of the punctual person who has to wait for me. Obsidian and others, thanks for being so brave.
I’m better then my parents, though. My mom usually leaves when she is supposed to arrive. As I live a three-hour drive from her, she’s usually three hours late. I had just gotten used to that, and planned accordingly, but now she has lately become totally unreliable; every once in a while, she’s actuallyon time :mad:
My dad once forgot an appointment with a friend/business associate. To make up for it, he invited the guy to dinner in a restaurant. He then forgot that appointment, too. :smack:
The post upthread about a girl who was always 20 minutes late because she couldn’t bear to wait for someone, as she would be worrying herself sick they wouldn’t show up; that remidned me that one of the reasons for my own tardiness might be to avoid the social talk beforehand. A habit that, for me, started in elementary school…
[QUOTE=Maastricht]
Man, I hate reading this thread. I’m chronically late, and I have made resolutions to change that silly trait time and time again, in vain. It’s hard to read hear how much other people are insulted by my tardiness. That never was the intention, in fact, I hate it when people have waited for me, **I wished they’d just go ahead with whatever they were planning to do. **
[/QUOTE]
They can’t. In addition to waiting for you, they’re worrying about you. Did you get a flat? Did you have an accident? Are you lost? How will he feel if he shows up and we’re not here?
I’m glad you’re taking steps to improve your punctuality. It really makes a difference. Good on ya.
[QUOTE=Maastricht]
Man, I hate reading this thread. I’m chronically late, and I have made resolutions to change that silly trait time and time again, in vain.
[/QUOTE]
Not trying to be a smartass here, but maybe if you didn’t think it was silly you would take it more seriously.
I don’t think anyone here is insulted by you. I am only insulted by the ones who make *me *wait. And the question of intent is a bit of a red herring. Whether or not you intend an insult, if you choose to do something that prevents you from keeping an appointment with me, than you have placed a higher value on that something. The insult is implicit. Intent really is irrelevant.
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster]
No because people who are late is the group being discussed and is therefore the specific group.
[/QUOTE]
Not that this is a critical point, but, no, you’re wrong. When you draw an analogy with another similar (at least with regard to a particular premise) but different situation, that does not somehow make it a logical fallacy. Reductio ad absurdum by definition is a comparison with another entity or circumstance. You understand what an analogy is, right?
Again, I bring this up because you like to toss around words like “ignorant” and “dishonest” pretty freely, it seems to me. Then when you’re called on it, you respond with a sentence that’s barely English (“No because people who are late is the group being discussed and is therefore the specific group”) that makes clear you don’t know what you’re talking about. Just thought I’d let you know that I didn’t buy your bullshit response, which was either, (a) ignorant or (b) dishonest.
[QUOTE=Smitty]
This was a locked dorm with constant supervision, so serious were the behavioral issues. Now, if ANY people could be said to “not be able to help themselves” when it comes to their actions, it would be the residents of this dorm.
There were a handful of staff who were brutal when it came to enforcing discipline on this dorm. I’m talking about dealing out serious pain when the residents didn’t “behave”. These residents, even though they had severe retardation, would look out of the window at shift change to see who was coming on duty. If they saw one of these staff members coming, they would IMMEDIATELY go to their chairs and stay quietly seated for the entire 8 hour shift unless told otherwise.
[/QUOTE]
That is absolutely appalling. Why didn’t you report this to someone who could have put a stop to it?
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
Let me further elaborate on this. I make no assertion about motivation. I only describe behavior. My condemnation (another strong word), concerns behavior, not motivation. I don’t give a rat’s ass *why *she thinks her time is more important, only that she does.
[/QUOTE]
“thinks her time is more important” is making an assertion about motivation.
The behavior is showing up late. You’re assigning motivation all over the place.
[QUOTE=amarinth]
“thinks her time is more important” is making an assertion about motivation.
The behavior is showing up late. You’re assigning motivation all over the place.
[/QUOTE]
You are confusing what she thinks with why she thinks it. “What she thinks” is the behavior, “why she thinks it” is the motivation. The logic is inescapable. If she is capable of meeting on time, and she chooses not to, then she has assigned a higher value to the thing she chooses to do. Is this such a difficult concept? If I note that you choose black shoes over red shoes, am I speaking to your motivation? If I remember that you prefer wine to beer, am I assigning a motivation to you when I serve you Chardonnay?
The behavior is choosing to do something else rather than uphold her commitment to me. What motivation have I assigned? Where have I suggested *why *she does anything?
) then I think you can be justified in deciding that someone is disrespectful because they are late. But I don’t think all situations are like these situations. I think a lot aren’t.