Is race really just a social construct?

Would you like me to open up a pit thread and point out your lies in embarrassing detail? As I recall, a few threads ago I caught you totally cold. If you wanna rehash, I’ll try to find the time.

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I just don’t have the patience to have substantive discussions with you. Among other things, because of your habit of misrepresenting my position.

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That’s nonsense. Feel free to point out where I have misrepresented anyone’s position.

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More nonsense, but I’m happy to defend my position - just not to you. If anyone else feels that my first post in this thread contains false claims, feel free to point it out and I will try to defend myself. If I can’t, then I’ll admit I’m in the wrong.

Given that I freely admitted having played with my responses after you began your campaign to launch the charge of dishonesty against several people in the race threads, it is hardly going to be revealing that I did, indeed, mess with my responses to your games. But do as you wish. You have never substantiated your own dishonest claim–as put forth in your “FAQ”-- that other posters are being dishonest (other than my games to which I have already admitted).

If riling people up and starting one more war is your goal, have at it.

I don’t really know what you mean by ‘playing with responses.’ If you are politely admitting that you have misrepresented my position intentionally on more than one occasion, then yeah, there’s no need to go into it again.

But that’s why I’m disinclined to have a substantive discussion with you.

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If anyone here cares to point out an accusation by myself of dishonesty, I will try to back it up. If I can’t back it up, I will retract what I said and apologize.

No need to be such a poor sport. Go bump the last thread we debated in and I’ll be happy to go a few more rounds with you.

Hello everybody… I am new to these boards… So bear with me please… I have read some of these comments on race - first of all “eugenics” is an old and very unscientific “science” supposed to elevate the white race to being better than any other… Facts are - blacks and whites can procreate - a dog and a cat can’t - because they are different species - we are not - as human beings. Yes - there are minor differences - but basically we are very much the same. I have 3 biracial children - all healthy, intelligent and beautiful… What is the problem??? It seems race is a big issue in America - I am Danish - we don’t see interracial relationships as anything out of the ordinary…

Simone :slight_smile:

What seems a bit hard for you to understand is that science is published in scientific journals, and that your cites don’t even support your claims pertaining to them. That you would cite a sociologist as evidence on genetic issues just about trumps everything.

Those aren’t my claims; they are statments taken verbatim from those cites. And I am not citing a sociologist as evidence on genetic issues. I am saying that despite the wealth of evidence mounted by scientists that show that races are genetically indistinct, there remains a pattern of differences that, while not applicable in every case, still makes the distinction of race relevant to certain fields. That those differences are not explained by unique DNA does not make them go away, and therefore leaves room for more research before we can unequivocally declare that race is entirely a social construct.

It is difficult to come up with a precise definition of “race”. It is also difficult to come up with a precise definition of “family”. Like “race”, “family” can be defined either very broadly to describe a group of barely related people or it can be defined very narrowly to describe a group of much more closely related people. A person COULD be more similar genetically to a randomly selected person outside of her family than she is to her sister, but probability doesn’t point in that direction. “Family” does have some purely social aspects. For example, adopted siblings are close family-members even though they may share no recent ancestry. It is sometimes hard to say where one family starts and another family ends. Everyone ultimately is a member of the same family. Does all this mean that “family” does not exist as a biological reality?

On another point: dogs and wolves are able to interbreed as freely as dogs and dogs. If dogs and wolves are different species, then what precise criteria were used to make that decision? Some people argue that dogs and wolves should really be classified as different races of the same species, but that points out that special classification occasionally shares some of the vagueness that racial classification does.

Well firstly dogs and wolves aren’t separate species. They are both the same species, with different sub-specific classification. Now that might be even more similar to race, but it’s important to understand that we are talking here about the same species. All individuals within a species are acknowledged to have free interchange of genetic material, in other words to be genetically indistinguishable simply because any individual can have any combination of genetic traits. However sub-species can be used for scientific purposes. In conservation ecology behaviours may differ, survival traits differ etc. In evolutionary biology or ethology the classifications give information about descent and behaviour modification.

The precise criteria for making those decisions are freely available in the appropriate journals. Not least of which are the obvious phenotypic traits. Wolves don’t bark except under extraordinary circumstances for example. With a few clear physical traits we can define whether an animal is a wolf or not. Let’s say we define 6 traits of wolves: not barking, canines >X% of skull length, skull width:length ratio of Y, adult tails held down in normal posture, females enter oestrus less than once every 9 months, resident naturally only in the northern hemisphere. If an animal has all those 5 traits it’s a wolf. If it doesn’t then it’s not a wolf. We can set a very hard and fast line.

Compare that to human ‘races’, Can anyone define even one human race on the basis of such criteria? Can we define a Negro in such a way that it excludes all people from Sri Lanka for example? Even if we use smaller ‘races’, can anyone define an ‘Eskimo’ race in a manner that excludes all people from Poland?

And if you did succeed in doing so, would it be scientifically viable or useful? Would an Eskimo have any survival advantages over a Pole? Would your Eskimo ‘race’ tell you anything at all about where the Eskimos came from? Would your Eskimo race be more or less primitive than the Hutu race? Would there be any behavioural traits common to all Eskimos beyond the very ones you used to define Eskimo in the first place.

Having followed this thread, the problem I see is this. We can define human races using arbitrary criteria, just as we can define a wolf subspecies. That’s scientifically valid as a basis for further testing. However everyone seems to agree that those classifications will tell us nothing at all with further testing. No one seems to be arguing that there will be no commonality at all between members of any given race beyond the very definition of the race. At least with the wolf subspecies’ we can use it as a basis for something, it tells us something about the relationships of the sub-species. Everyone seems to agree that human races don’t allow us to do that.

It seems that the whole argument that race isn’t a purely social construct rests in the premise that because we can mathematically define arbitrary racial boundaries, that makes it scientific. It doesn’t of course. I could arbitrary set boundaries for an Asgard race that says they have to be >6’ tall and have red hair. Those things can be precisely mathematically defined, but we all agree that such a classification would tell me nothing at all. Any other race is equally arbitrary.

In short, simply being able to mathematically arbitrarily define a race doesn’t mean race isn’t a social construct. All such definition means is that the social construction is pushed back one step further. Race becomes a scientifically definable concept based on arbitrary socially constructed criteria. While it’s valid enough to say that any such races is scientifically valid we have two massive problems.

  1. No one has yet published such criteria, yet they still insist on bandying about the word ‘race’
  2. It’s pure semantics. I could use precisely the same criteria to support my assertion that the Partridge Family is a not a social construct but a biologically valid grouping. I assume no one actually believes that iis true do they?

I thought you all would be interested in this PBS series: RACE - The Power of an Illusion.

Great link, chula. I’ve been lurking this thread for a while, bewilderd as to why people keep insisting on the validity of the concept of race, but with a lot of interest.

So carry on, just pretend I’m not there :slight_smile:

Blake,

Dogs and wolves are considered one species today, but they were considered two species just a few years ago. This reclassification (which is still not accepted by all taxonomists) was based on a realization that dogs and wolves are more closely related and genetically similar than was earlier believed. However, no one can quantify the degree of observed genetic similarity that was reached that mandated this reclassification. This is because there is no precise degree of genetic dissimilarity that is required for the division of two groups into species. We cannot say that because two kinds of organisms share no more than 99.abc% of their genes they are separate species, but because two other kinds of organisms share only 99.abb% of their genes they are all the same species. Taxonomists simply haven’t fixed values for a,b, and c. There is a point where classification of species becomes arbitrary. There is no dividing line agreed upon by all taxonomists. The prevailing rule has been that if two kinds of animals can freely interbreed then they are the same species. The problem with that is that some separate species do interbreed and produce fertile descendants. Again, there are just no hard and fast rules as to when speciation happens.

As to the precise criteria for classification of species and subspecies being “freely available in the appropriate journals”, I’ve not been able to find any articles which establish such criteria. If you can, please cite some of the articles you mentioned or tell us what those precise criteria are and which bodies of scientists decreed that those are the precise criteria. Every article I’ve read on the subject acknowledges that species is, ultimately, a man-made distinction and therefore becomes aribtrary at some frequently easily observable point. This does not mean that species has no biological reality, though. (I should point out that this whole argument was directed at those who have argued earlier in this thread that race is invalid because it is arbitrary whereas species is valid because it’s clear-cut. My point was that species is not the precise distinction that some people think it is.)

As to the matter of subspecies, I was not claiming that human racial differences rise to the level of different subspecies. Human races would be more closely analogous to breeds or strains.

The problem with the race of >6’ tall redheads you propose is that you base classification in that race on just two criteria. Most people base even casual classification by race on skin color, eye color, hair color, hair texture, facial features (some determined by bone structure and some not), and other traits. That’s how they can tell whether a person of a particular coloration is of sub-Saharan descent or of Indian descent. If you consider even the few traits I’ve listed, you can get a pretty good idea of where most of a person’s ancient ancestors lived for most of the last few tens of thousands of years. (Ancestral geography is a valid part of biological classification, as you implied in your description of the wolf subspecies.) Because your so-called Asgard race is defined by a smaller set of traits, they are harder to pinpoint geographically and ancestrally (though the red hair makes it a little easier to make a good guess as to which local populations most of them would come from) and the Asgards would not likely share as much recent ancestry as do the members of a race defined by a larger set of criteria.

If you can’t tell an Eskimo from a Pole, you need to get out more. There’s no need to go into the details of how the difference can be objectively determined, since any such system is based on the sorts of things I just discussed. One point worth noting is this: Even though two population groups may be virtually identical genetically, their genes can still express themselves in markedly different inherited ways. The fact that we may not be able to reliably tell the difference between the DNA of a Swede and the DNA of a Pygmy does not mean that a Swedish couple and a Pygmy couple need worry about their two babies being accidentally switched at birth. It means that there is something about the way that genes collectively express themselves that goes beyond currently-quantifiable measurements of DNA.

Racial classification of humans may have no value for the future. I’m not claiming that it does. I think more research has to be done before that can be determined. You briefly mention this in your post, and I commend you on that. Closing the door on the idea of race now, however, doesn’t seem warranted or wise.

I just realized I was vague about one point in the first paragraph of my earlier post. What I intended to write was: “…We cannot say that because two kinds of organisms share no more than 99.abc% of their genes they are separate species, but because two other kinds of organisms share at least 99.abd% of their genes they are the same species. Taxonomists simply haven’t fixed values for a,b,c, and d…”

I hope this clarifies that point. Apologies for the mistake are given to all.

I think the whole race as social construct movement is trying to correct the errors/sins of the past. That is trying to show, using modern science that the “facts” concerning race were based on bad science and the desire to justify acts of inhumanity.

Most if not all of our opinions on Race are based on those early observations…which were wrong. Yet we (Americans) have over 400 years of this baggage weighting us down. We have to cut it lose and the only way to do that is to show why and how the ‘concept’ of race; not the biology of it, is a social construct. But the only way to do that is with biology…ironic isn’t it?

Native Americans are called “Indians”. Why? Because Columbus got lost, ‘discovered’ the people first and named them. Yet even when he realized his mistake the name stuck. This is the same thing that happened with Race. The first explorers met these people and not knowing what to make of them, labeled them as best they could. Fine. Their sin was however granting these people character traits, based solely on their physical characteristics. Characteristics which they often painstakely measured, granting those uninformed opinions the air of science.

A quick google on Race, will give you a myriad of sites, proving with “scienticfic facts” which race is superior based on the 17-18th centuries…only will science silence them, as common sense seems to have little effect.

We have to show people that, yes while there are differences between us…the reasons why we consider those differences to be important, is based on a lie… a mistake…on pride. I mean c’mon, penis size…mustard seed in skulls…the width of noses, if that isn’t voodoo science I don’t know what is.
As far as Race being similar to breeds of dogs, this a bad analogy. Dogs have been altered by men to perform specific tasks or just because someone decided that they like small, hairless dogs. Free occuring evolution has nothing to do with why a Great Dane and Lab look different; Man does. A better analogy would be with a Polar Bear and Black Bear. Bears like men have had the environment shape their forms, and like all members of the same species can reproduce when given the opportunity.

I’ve been mulling over this statement and I cannot resist thinking about it. Its not true. Perhaps some one else has said what I am about to, but if so I messed it.

What we think of as races really aren’t. They are extended ethnicities based on geological proximity.

We think of people being “black” or whatever, but its not really so. Black encompasses many different people who don’t even look or live at all alike each other. Morrocan aren’t Egyptions aren’t West Africans aren’t east Africans aren’t South Africans. Liekwise, “Caucasian” includes everyone from Ireland to India.

holmes,

Polar bears (Ursus maritimus) and american black bears (Ursus americanus) are separate species, as are the other major types of bears. Bears of different species are capable of producing fertile hybrids. There is some evidence that this even happens in nature.

In contrast, the single species of antelope called Madoqua kirkii contains populations which have the sort of extreme difficulties producing fertile hybrids which is typical of different, but closely-related, species.

Again, the definition of species based on an ability to interbreed freely is not completely valid. There are a variety of systems of classifying species and they don’t always produce the same distinctions. Species is a man-made classification. That does not mean that it has no biological validity, though.

Human races are, as you point out, more analogous to breeds or strains of non-domesticated animals than they are to breeds of dogs. This does not invalidate their reality.

(However, it is worth remembering that humans did not violate any laws of heredity or any other part of nature in developing the breeds of dogs. Dogs breeds have limited value in explaining evolution as it happens without the influence of man, but they have greater value in explaining more fundamental genetic matters. Also, humans have exercised some conscious control over their own evolution, much more so than any other species.)

You are correct, mispoke. I was thinking as that the giant panda (Ailuropoda lufengensesis) is clearly a distinct species from the others as they cannot reproduce with any other bear, the others could ‘loosely’ be considered the same species or a sub-species as they past the basic test…reproduction. But it ain’t so.

I’m not questioning their reality, just the basis for it and the motives and results of focusing on them. Say I offered you a common housecat, one stripped cat, one grey. You may have a preference, based on physical apperance which cat you want… Fine.

But I doubt (and excuse me for reading your mind) once you picked one you would give the other a second thought, or give it ‘vastly different’ abilities than the other, even though they are clearly different cats. Humans should be considered no differently.

I have to disagree. One of the biggest problems with pure breed dogs, is the breakdown of the genetic code, that is in order to ‘purify’ certain desirable traits often unwanted traits are increased. In my opinion the laws of heredity is designed to weed out the ‘weak’ genes, not amplify them. Does dog breeding follow the “law” of heredity? Yes, but not the spirit of it.

You are correct, mispoke. I was thinking as that the giant panda (Ailuropoda lufengensesis) is clearly a distinct species from the others as they cannot reproduce with any other bear, the others could ‘loosely’ be considered the same species as they past the basic test…reproduction. But it ain’t so.

I’m not questioning their reality, just the basis for it and the motives and results of focusing on them. Say I offered you a common housecat, one stripped cat, one grey. You may have a preference, based on physical apperance which cat you want… Fine.

But I doubt (and excuse me for reading your mind) once you picked one you would give the other a second thought, or give it ‘vastly different’ abilities than the other, even though they are clearly different cats. Humans should be considered no differently. Yet because of the ignorance of the past, we treat different looking humans as ( insert description) solely on their physical apperance. Further we seem unable to understand that many of the traits of Race apply to people who share nothing culturely, or environmentally with one another.

Take Sickle Cell Anemia…the disease of the “black” Race… Ask any American and I bet dollars to donuts, that he’ll tell you that only “blacks” get it. Yet it is also found in Turkey, Greece and Italy. Are we now to consider Turks, Greeks and Italians black? Are they now two races in those countries?

Is Race a reality? Yes, the reality is, it’s full of crap…based on the logic of people of considered Jews, Irish and the Welch to be separate Races.

I have to disagree. One of the biggest problems with pure breed dogs, is the breakdown of the genetic code, that is in order to ‘purify’ certain desirable traits often unwanted traits are increased. In my opinion the laws of heredity is designed to weed out the ‘weak’ genes, not amplify them. Does dog breeding follow the “law” of heredity? Yes, but not the spirit of it.

Johnny Polk you appear to have totally missed the point of my post. At no stage did I say that the criteria for separating any two species, or any two subspecies, are less than arbitrary. In fact my entire point was hat such criteria are necessarily arbitrary. However any divisions stemming from such must tell us more than simply re-stating the dividing criteria. If they can’t do that then they have no scientific validity and are exclusively artificial social constructs, not natural divisions.

In the case of dogs and wolves the divisions created using the arbitrary criteria provide information on evolutionary relationships, behaviour etc. In the case of human races no such conclusions can be drawn.

I can’t tell you in which journals the criteria for splitting C. l… lupus from C. l. familiaris are to be found. However they must have been published in appropriate peer reviewed journals for the taxonomy to be accepted. That is convention. I can equally confidently tell you that the results of the experiments defining the atomic weight of Einsteinium are freely available in the appropriate journals without having ever read them.

You do realise of course that no biological classification is based on hard and fast criteria? At some level all organisms are interfertile through transition species. In many cases these species are extinct, but that fact simply reinforces the arbitrary nature of the division criteria.

Now to some more specific problems:

That’s interesting. I’d be very interested in hearing what exact criteria you use to distinguish between a Tamil, a Matabele for example. Could you please post those criteria here. I may then post some unlabelled photographs to my web page and you can use those criteria to separate a small number of people belonging to Indian and Sub-Saharan groups.

No you can’t. Would you be prepared to accept a challenge to do so?

Of course there is a need to go into the details. Simply asserting that you can do so tells me nothing at all. I don’t believe that you or anyone else can do so. Suggetsing that I am somehow ignorant and sheltered because I have met Poles who are indistinguishable from Eskimos is borderline insulting. At best it shows that you have had little exposure to the full spectrum of Polish people, who have been interbreeding with Cossacks and Mongols for millennia. Again, would you be prepared to accept a challenge to separate Poles from Eskimos based on external characteristics? It’s easy to believe that you can do something and it’s even easier to assert such. But I have yet to see it done.

Polk, perhaps this will help?About race