Yeah, I don’t think I’m going to play this game. I’d forgotten how unsavory your series of fetch-quests-because-you’d-rather-not-track-down-the-info-yourself are.
I didn’t think you would – as far as I can tell there isn’t evidence to sustain your claim.
:shrug: It’s not my responsibility to go looking for evidence to support your claims.
You are claiming that there was a serious push for “Palestinian” self-determination before it became convenient to do so in order to undermine Israel. However, you have not pointed to a single newspaper article from the 1920s or 30s to support your claim. You have not been able to identify a single organization the purpose of which was to push for “Palestinian” self-determination. You have not pointed to a single congress. Heck, you have not even pointed to a rally or demonstration.
In short, you seem to have substituted your own wishes for reality.
Not that you’ve looked. Or intend to. Or plan on following up on all the facts I’ve already presented to you. Of course.
I have little enough patience for partisan hacks on the anti-Israel side. I’m certainly not going to waste my time with someone whose argument is wilfully ignorant and who routinely puts the word Palestinian in scare quotes. Being anti-Palestinian doesn’t make your tactics any more palatable.
Of course I have. But there is a limit on what I can do to prove a negative.
Anyway, if your claim is even remotely true it should not be too hard for you to point to an organization. Or at least a demonstration or rally or two.
What facts have you presented besides your own unsupported assertions and those of some author whom you yourself won’t even vouch for?
Lol, if anyone’s argument is “wilfully ignorant” it’s yours. You haven’t offered a shred of evidence to support your claims – unless one counts conclusory assertions. If you offered some actual evidence I would consider it.
I’m not sure what you mean by “anti-Palestinian.” Is it “anti-Palestinian” to point out that the group known as “Palestinians” are a recent invention for purposes of undermining Israel? If so, then I guess I am “anti-Palestinian.”
Again my question:
In the 1920s and 1930s, what was the most prominent group or organization which pushed for “Palestinian” self-determination?
And if you refuse to answer, does that make my argument “wilfully ignorant”?
Is the land Palestine’s or Israel’s? Both?
My understanding is that the Jewish influx was fairly recent, thus pissing off the previous inhabitants who feel like the US is siding with those who would drive them out of their lands.
What “the land”?
As there was never a sovereign state of Palestine, and it was subsumed in an administrative district during the Ottoman Empire, there was no state to claim the land as its possession. During the Ottoman Empire, private land ownership was the exception, not the norm. Most people who lived in the Levant were renters who gained use of the land only by continued cultivation of the land. Is that, then, “Palestinian land”? Why or why not? Groups like Hamas claim all land ever conquered by Islamic forces as a Waqf, is that “Arab land”? Why or why not? As the majority of land in the Levant was state-owned land, and Israel is now the sovereign state with jurisdiction over the land within its borders, does that make it “Israeli land”? Why or why not?
I think this kind of mindset is exactly what enables and makes hatred flourish.
Aside from the fact that whole “Palestinians are invented” meme is part and parcel of effort to dehumanize Palestinians and make their deaths and suffering less human, therefore less significant, you really don’t care who they really are. I mean, it could have been anyone.
You feel that there is a well-defined and well-funded movement where propaganda, media and political process intertwine with overtones of racism, ethnic discrimination and name calling which you can belong to instantly as soon as you start to use and promulgate its major “talking points”. You really don’t think what the impact of those talking points is – you just keep repeating and inventing new ways to “argue” them.
The guy is telling you to tone it down for the sake of validity of some of his points but you refuse. With indignation, I might add.
Otherwise, it’s fantastic to read this exchange.
No, it’s the Arab determination to destroy Jewish Israel which is responsible.
What is your support for this claim?
And why do you think it is that the “Palestinian” leadership has announced that a “Palestinian” state would not offer citizenship to “Palestinians” living in “refugee camps” on the West Bank?
And if you really care about the suffering of the “Palestinians,” why aren’t you criticizing Lebanon for its intense discrimination against “Palestinians”?
You need to explain what you mean by “Palestine,” “the land”, and also what you mean by your apostrophe s.
In my opinion, the areas commonly referred to as “Israel,” the “West Bank”, “Gaza”, “Golan Heights,” and “Jordan” have been occupied and resided in by so many different groups over the years that it’s not reasonable to say that the area is “Group X’s”
Jews have been residing in the area for thousands of years. There was a big influx of Jews throughout the 20th century. No doubt it upset many of the Arabs living there at the time, just like the influx of Hispanics in the US over the last 30 years has upset a lot of non-Hispanics.
If by “fairly recent” you mean “within the last century”.
The land was originally the Turk’s, until WW1 and the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, which was then taken under control by a British “mandate”.
Hence my comments above about the uselessness of this whole line of inquiry. It inevitably ends up with learned (but heated) disussions of land-use legalities under multiple systems of law, in some cases of jurisdictions which no longer exist - such as the Ottoman - British mandatory policies, the renuciation of rights by the Jordanians over significant portions of it, etc. ad nauseum.
It’s a complex subject with many nuances, and in a sense it doesn’t really matter - what matters is that the Israelis currently occupy the land, most of them by now were born there, and have no-where to go; while on the other side the Palestinains feel they have a legitimate claim to the same land. On the one hand the “settlers” are trying to expand the reach of Israeli ownership by nook-and-corner encroachment, and the Israeli state by occupying strategic bits should a new war occur; on the other, the Palestinians are hoping for some reversal of fortune that enables them to chuck the Israelis out (but fortune has, if anything, made their situation ever more hopeless as time goes on).
The moral calculus is complicated by the fact that about half the Israeli population is composed of Jews from the Middle East - they were forced out of their countries by local hostility, largely as a result of Israeli success - and these folks (or their desendants) really have no hope of moving back.
What you have is a blob of people who lived in the area from the Iran/Persia border to the edge of the Nile valley, from Turkey/Byantium in the north to, I assume, Yemen in the south. They are various tribes and mixed ethnicities. Like Africa before the europeans, they were a mix of groups. The main advantage was that thanks to the muslim conquests, they all spoke roughly the same language., they certainly share a written language.
Different groups tended to coalesce and identify around central geographic boundaries - ie. the lebanese shore, the highlands of Jordan, the Jordan valley, the mediterannean coast.
Like the conquest of Africa, outside powers created arbitrary demarcations between these groups. Generations of enforcing divisions have helped define identities. Today someone probably identifies as Palestinian, Jordanian, Syrian because that is how sevral geenrations have been raised to think of themselves, and because mingling within that country is far more common than mixing with others from other countries.
This is analogous to how pretty much the same groups of immigrants identify as “canadian” or “American” despite similar origins and enviroments…
So no, there was no “Palestinian” before say, 1900. There is now. But the are the same people who have owned and used the land for 1500-plus years.
But they’re not. During the centuries of Ottoman rule, for example, the supermajority of land was not privately owned at all, but was state land, ineligible for private ownership itself. Further, over the centuries, there was migration in and out of the region, especially as it was essentially a backwater portion of the Syrian district. Simplistic claims that there were the same people in the region contiguously and they were the ones who held land ownership is a fiction.
Not that it matters all that much at present, as Malthus points out. But getting the facts correct is still preferable.
I am somehow reminded of that old Eddie Izzard sketch… “Well, do you have a flag?”
This is pretty much how I am viewing things, based on what I’ve read in this thread.
nvm
I’m very skeptical of this claim. Do you have proof?
You’ve said this several times. Who exactly invented Palestinians? If it (the Palestinian people) is indeed a charade, why is the whole world going along with it? I’m going to be honest with you - a task that’ll likely get me banned from the SDMB: I think a lot of what you’re saying here is borderline racist, if not flat-out intolerant of Arabs and Muslims. You’re lumping Palestinians into the Arab pile because it’s convenient to paint them with the same brush. It suits the “us vs them” mentality that permeates nearly every Israel-Palestinian discussion on this board. You can’t expect anyone on this board to believe that all or even most Arabs have some undying hatred for Israel. You can’t expect us to believe that Islam is anymore less tolerant or more barbaric than Christianity or Judaism. Where’s the proof on that? Where’s the cite on that?
It all strikes me as a clever way in which white people (Now, I know Israelis don’t think of themselves as white, but take it from me: they’re as white as wind-driven snow) justify their own brand of racism against brown people. It’s no different in how the whites treated the blacks and Native Americans in America; no different how the U.S treated Asians during WW2; no different in how the Dutch and British treated the South Africans; and no different how the Germans treated the Jews. No difference at all, in fact, it’s worse because it’s occurring in the present rather than fifty years ago.
- Honesty
Emphasis mine.
Claim that for 70+ years now, the Israelis have been running a program of deliberately, regimented, factory-style extermination which has, oddly, seen a massive increase in Palestinian population, Honesty’s.
I don’t know the specific group or individuals who did it.
I will try to answer your question if you supply proof that your presupposition is correct. i.e. please show me proof that the “whole world” disputes that (1) “Palestinians” were recently invented; and (2) this was for the purpose of undermining Zionism. Because I am seriously skeptical of your implicit claim.
Lol, the popular fallback position of a Leftist with no substantive response: Accuse one’s opponent of racism.
Even if my motivations were as you claim (which I deny) it would not affect the underlying truth of my assertion. But the fact that your main argument is to attack my motivations is telling.
Please show me where I made such an assertion. Please QUOTE me. Failing that, please admit that I said no such thing and apologize.
Your choice.
Was this part of my argument? Or is this just an argument you imagine or wish I had made?
More attacks on motivations.
But since we are discussing motivations, I would like to ask you a question:
Do you condemn the way that “Palestinians” are subject to intense discrimination throughout the Arab world? Or is it only when they come into conflict with Jews that you have a problem?
And no different from the way “Palestinians” are treated by Lebanese, Syrians, and Egyptians?
And no different from the way Jews have been treated by the Arabs?
Dude, you really ought to do research before insulting people.
Next time you try your “gotcha” question, don’t demand an example of an organization demanding Palestinian self-determination during the 1930, because that’s exactly what the Arab High Committee was demanding when they launched a violent revolt against the British in the 1930s.