Is Russia being bogged down in Ukraine similar to if in 1991 Iraq held back the United States?

I’ve been trying to think of a similar situation to the current Russia/Ukraine War and my best estimation is if in the 1991 Gulf War if somehow the Iraqis stopped the American/Allied invasion into Iraq itself.

The Iraqi Army (at least from what I remember reading) was within the Top 10 of Military Powers in terms of weapons and equipment and it was said that Baghdad had a similar amount of AA defenses as Hanoi. But superior equipment, training and planning saved the day as the month long air campaign prior to the invasion basically destroyed all Iraqi command and control and shattered Iraqi solider morale.

I’m curious if the Russians had committed a similar month long air campaign if their 10 days to victory in Ukraine would have worked.

I’m no defence expert, but it is my understanding the VVS (Russian air force) has proved to be much inferior to the coalition air force (mostly USAF) from the 2003 air campaign in Iraq. They have much less precision guided munition, and their pilots has much less training in using them.

They tried to destroy the Ukraine air force on the ground right at the start of the war, and largely failed. They haven’t done any serious air defense suppresion. Ukraine received a lot of additional MANPADs following the invasion, but my guess is they would have got them even if Russia had opened with only an air war.

If Zelenskyy and his generals had 10 days to prepare ground defenses, its possible the russian army wouldn’t have taken Kherson and Melitopol, and would never have gotten even close to Kyiv.

It’s probably more similar to Vietnam than the 1991 Gulf War.

The Russian military has a much different mindset than the U.S. military. First of all, there is the old Russian philosophy of “quantity has a quality all its own”. The Russians like to make everything in their military cheap and simple. One of the classic examples is the Soviet AK-47 vs. the U.S. M-16. The AK-47 is less accurate, but it’s much less expensive and much easier to produce. This strategy worked extremely well in WWII, where the classic example was the German Tiger tank vs. the Soviet T-34. The Tiger was by every measure a much better tank. It had a more powerful gun. It had more powerful armor. There are numerous stories (many exaggerated, but some actually true) of Soviet tank crews getting so frustrated that their tanks couldn’t defeat the Tigers that they would just ram full speed into the Tiger. The much simpler and more rugged T-34 would often survive the collision, and the Tiger would get knocked out. But here’s the important thing. The Tiger cost so much to make that the Germans couldn’t afford to have anywhere as many of them on the field. So the “inferior” T-34 tanks just rolled across the border in wave after wave and completely overwhelmed the Germans. We did the same thing with our Sherman tanks. They were even more outgunned than the Soviet T-34s, but we could produce 10 Shermans for the same amount of resources as 1 Tiger.

The U.S. has gotten away from that philosophy a bit, but the Russians have kept with it. I have read some of the opinions of military experts, and one thing that they have said about the Ukraine war is that a lot of people are now questioning whether the Russian/Soviet philosophy of using “almost as good” weapons actually works in modern warfare. This may have a huge impact on foreign arms sales, as countries may decide that buying cheaper Russian weapons is actually a waste of money if they can be so easily defeated by smaller numbers of better U.S. weapons.

Another thing that factors into the Ukraine war is the use of modern man-portable anti-aircraft systems. If the Russians had committed a month-long air campaign, they would have likely lost a lot of valuable aircraft. As it is, the Russians have lost quite a few aircraft to portable MANPADS systems. It’s easy to understand why the Russian Air Force is a bit reluctant to send in large numbers of aircraft.

A third thing that has come out of this is how corrupt the Russian military is, and how much this has had a negative impact on their fighting ability. Russian recruiters have long over-stated how many soldiers they have recruited so that they could skim off funds for these extra non-existent recruits. Tank builders have neglected to install proper reactive armor, so that they could pocket the money they saved from not bothering with it. Many tanks have been destroyed in the Ukraine because the reactive armor that should have stopped an incoming round was nothing but a hollowed-out shell with nothing inside of it (reactive armor works by having explosives inside the outer shell, so that when an incoming round strikes it sets off the explosives, which blows back against the incoming round and drastically reduces its effectiveness). Fuel for military vehicles and other vital logistical supplies were sold on the black market. The end result is fewer soldiers on the field, huge logistical issues, and ineffective weapons and armor. The Russians had a huge ego and thought that their mighty army was so strong that it wouldn’t make a difference. They also thought that they would be welcomed with open arms as “liberators”. They were wrong on both counts.

You also can’t discount Western training and support. The West, especially the U.S., has been supplying a lot of those deadly and effective MANPADS systems, along with drones and all sorts of arms. NATO has been training for a Soviet/Russian invasion for decades, and since most NATO members don’t have the huge military budgets like the U.S. they have been specifically training for how less well-armed militaries with smaller numbers can fight off a ground invasion by the Russians. The U.S. and NATO have trained Ukrainian commanders to use these techniques, and they have been very effective.

And finally, morale makes a huge difference. Russian soldiers really don’t want to be there, and don’t have a huge motivation to die for Putin. The Ukrainians on the other hand are literally fighting for the existence of their country. Russia has long had a policy of being more than willing to just throw men into battle. The U.S. by comparison is much less willing to sacrifice bodies for military victories. Vietnam became an extremely unpopular war when average Americans started seeing body bags on TV news every night. It’s difficult for a Russian soldier to stay motivated when he knows that Putin and all of the Russian generals really don’t care if he lives or dies, and are more than willing to sacrifice his life for a few miles of captured territory.

I think you may have meant to go with 2003 rather than 1991? 2003 is a much better analogy.

And yes, it is similar, except that 2003 Iraq was much weaker vis-a-vis America than Ukraine was/is vs Russia.

Technically, Ukraine had plenty more than 10 days to prepare such defenses. It’s just that Zelensky and his administration refused to take the threat seriously until the shooting actually began.

I’ll quibble with this a bit. I think it’s more accurate to say that Zelensky and most of the rest of the world didn’t consider actual combat actions likely, when it was very probable that Putin would have gotten 80% or so of what he wanted via the threat of such at the negotiating table.

There is one huge difference with Russia invading Ukraine and the US in either Iraq or Vietnam. Russia shares a border with Ukraine. The logistics of getting troops and material to Iraq or Vietnam must be an order of magnitude greater than just moving around within your own country.
Of course Russia just spends money on hardware and not on training or logistics, at least not compared to the US.

Which makes America all the more impressive, or Russia all the more pathetic.

America managed to pull off a smooth invasion of Iraq in 2003 and get to Baghdad in three weeks, halfway across the globe.

Russia couldn’t get to Kyiv in eight months despite Ukraine being its neighbor.

I think that should be ‘and’ instead of ‘or’.

That’s my take on it. Russia getting bogged down so quickly in Ukraine was surprising, but the US getting just as bogged down in Iraq is pretty close to unthinkable.

I knew the long-term occupation of Iraq (and Afghanistan, as well) would be very different, and would very likely turn into a generation-long mess, but there was never any doubt that the initial invasions would mop the floor with the opposition.

A huge difference is that the U.S. had complete air supremacy, and widespread cheap drones were not yet a thing. So Iraqis were cut off from intelligence, could not see where the coalition forces were, and every time they stuck their heads up they’d get hammered. A-10’s were incredibly useful in Iraq because of this.

Then there were the little technological differences which actually were huge factors. For example Iraqi tanks had standard optical sights, and their tanks could not fire accurately while moving. American Abrams tanks had stabilized guns and computers that could calculate firing solutions on the run, and their optics could see at night and through smoke. That made all the difference.

Not to mention a constant steam of Russian atrocities and looting. Putin has shown what happens if you lose.

Logistics- Russian Logistics are poor due to massive corruption.

Joseph Stalin is alleged to have said that the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor would result in Japan’s defeat. When this turned out to be true, despite the “common wisdom,” he was asked what he based his prediction on. “I compared US steel production with that of Japan, and discovered that in its worst year, the US produced more steel than Japan in its best year.” In its best year of steel production, Iraq produced no steel at all. Rumors of its m8,Italy might were similarly exaggerated.

It’s possible that Russia wanted to occupy only parts of Ukraine dominated by Russians, and that if he attempted to take control of the whole country he would get backlash from most countries.

Currently, many countries have chosen to remain neutral, while others, like Saudi Arabia and Israel, have answered back at the U.S.

The possible reason for these might be the context of the invasion, which involved meddling in Ukraine by the U.S. and others. There are details given here:

Israel has avoided material support for Ukraine because of the Russian anti-aircraft batteries on its borders, and because Russia holds a quarter of a million potential Jewish hostages. Not because it thinks Russia is right.

It’s hard to say for certain what Putin’s actual plan was, but I personally think that his best case was that he would take control of the entire country. He expected the backlash to be pretty much the same as when he annexed Crimea in 2004. There was a bit of political backlash, but at the end of the day Russia ended up in control of Crimea and nobody really did much about it.

If completely destroying the Ukraine and turning the entire country into a Russian province didn’t work, I believe he thought that worst case he would do a huge land grab of the parts dominated by Russians (as you said) and declare victory, and hopefully force the government of the Ukraine to collapse so that someone who was more favorable to Moscow would end up in charge.

I think Putin thought that his huge and mighty Russian army would just stomp through the Ukraine. Not only would the Ukrainians be unable to stop the mighty Russian military, most Ukrainians would not even be willing to fight and would welcome the Russians with open arms as liberators.

I don’t think Putin considered the complete failure of the Russian military to be a realistic possibility.

Moderating:

This doesn’t seem on-topic regarding comparing the bogged-down-edness of Russia as compared to the US invasion of Iraq. I think it’s better suited to another thread.

If you like, I’ll move your post and the two replies to a new thread.

Agree with all the above.

A further factor is that the weather and territory in Iraq is ideal for air power and for armor. You can’t ask for better than clear cloud-free skies and an almost rock-hard surface to drive heavy vehicles over with no pesky rivers, forests, or swamps. The US consequently cleaned house in Iraq.

By contrast, Ukraine is typical southern Europe: hilly, forested, muddy, and cloudy. With lots of rivers.

Had the Russians chosen to invade Iraq and instead the US was tasked with invading Ukraine, the results of the two invasions would have been closer to one another. Ignoring for a moment the troublesome fact that Russia doesn’t actually border Iraq. So substitute Russia invading e.g. Kazakhstan for a comparable degree of terrain/weather difficulty factor.