At long last after the whole pro-Western (or, to cut through the chase trhe self-lauding American and most British press) an article that, on its surface appears uninfluenced by the current infestation of Cold War “revivals”:
Ironically enough, while I find this piece fairly even-handed, what is amazing is just how fast the US can find a new foe…now that “Islamofacism” was trending downwards.
Need to keep that fear sky-high, don’t you? For it translates to control – and in my almost fifty ears visiting the US has never looked closer to a police State.
You might bow down to it for reasons that are too absurd to mention, but one you led the way and there are plenty of nations that won’t. In fact, enough to make you irrelevant should you not change your ways in less than two decades…
I may not be around to see it but hey, want to call me a Prophet afterward go right ahead. Not that it takes much too see what’s going on despite all the BS.
A piece that goes on about Taiwan as a breakaway statelet? Puh-leeze. Exactly how did it break away from anything? Taiwan has never been under the authority of the Peoples’ Republic of China. Is there some rule of civil wars that if the upstart side wins most of a nation’s territory, it is accorded the remainder automatically?
To the victor go the spoils, shrugs. The entire notion of national legitimacy is generally overwrought. Ultimately what legitimizes a nation is it’s ability to keep what it takes.
Red, you know I like you a lot, but the idea that this is all propaganda is just not right. Russia has said repeatedly that not only will it leave Georgia, but it has in fact begun already. In fact, it’s been saying that for about a week. It hasn’t. Russia has stationed a good number of troops in Georgia way the hell outside of either of the breakaway regions. As far as I’m concerned, Russia is welcome to S. Ossetia and Abkhazia if the people in those areas want it that way. And I will willingly grant you that some of Russia’s actions are due to Russia’s long tradition of fear and paranoia, rather than trying to build power. I’ll grant you that Georgia screwed the pooch by giving Russia the excuse they’d been waiting for to invade by attacking S. Ossetia civilians and Russian troops stationed there.
BUT. This appears to be about quite a bit more than just S. Ossetia and Abkhazia, and it’s Russian troops, not the US or the UK that’s making it that way. I’ve been watching Independent News via PBS, and seeing footage of them. I believe it - it’s not up to the producion standard of Wag the Dog. And I understand the satellite photos also show it. The Russian troops show no sign whatsoever of withdrawing, regardless of what they say they are doing or have done. That’s not our propaganda. It would appear to be a clumsy attempt at theirs.
Russia may very well have felt a bit threatened. But what they’re doing just now is not right. And I’m about as leftish as you get in the US.
By the way, where is the European peace movement? You know, the ones that gather by the hundreds of thousands to protest any military action the U.S. might undertake? I’m not hearing a peep from them. This was an unlawful invasion right in their own backyard. Where are the marches? Where are the demands that the U.N. do something? Where are the requests for sanctions and boycotts of Russia?
(1) The European peace movement doesn’t protest any military action by the U.S. In fact, the only protests we have seen that I can recall were about the Iraq war.
(2) Everyone knows that Russia is run by a bunch of bastards. Having an anti-Russia rally is about as pointless as having an anti-Puppy kicking rally. There’s no pro-Russia sentiment in Europe or the Western World. The U.S., on the other hand, is not generally run by a bunch of bastards. It seems that the Europeans wanted to bring attention to the fact that the U.S. was (is) run by a bunch of bastards, and try to counter the pro-U.S. sentiment in their countries.
Russian leaders, like most fairly dictatorial leaders, have as their first priority keeping themselves in power. Faced with a lot of countries around them going Democratic and succeeding economically with better standards of living for the average citizen, I imagine they’re scared. Plus, Russia has a long history of being a huge battlefield. The paranoia and the pessimism is centuries old.
As to why there weren’t peace demonstrations in Europe, my guess would be two-fold: 1) we’re in the middle of the Olympics and the big-time demonstrators are over in China making nuisances of themselves there, and 2) unlike the U.S., Russia might respond rather nastily. Europe has legitimate reasons to fear responding too assertively. If Russia were smack on top of us with a bunch of tanks, jets, and missiles, and provided as much of our energy as they do for Europe, we’d be being a little less enthusiastic about it too.
This isn’t moral bankruptcy. It’s wanting to survive the winter. Idealism comes at a cost, and in this case, it will be the Europeans who will pay most of that cost. They have to decide if they can afford it.
Why the fuck should anyone march in favour of the initial aggressor? You play with fire, you get burned. Good lesson for the next bunch who think they can embroil NATO in the suppression of other ethnicities.
Georgia gambled and Georgia lost. Too late for them to whine on and play the ‘poor little democracy’ card. People who lay specious claims to states that they have never controlled and whose claim for them lies in the fact they were administratively part of Georgia in the map of the USSR don’t get to play that card.
And I doubt if anyone wants, ‘because Uncle Joe Stalin said it was ours’ to become a legitimate claim on territory. Not Moldova or Latvia.
Georgia lost. Its US backers lost and there is nothing that can be done about it but play the game from here. As Russia holds all the cards there is no use bleating on like a whiny bunch of kids. Russia is doing no more than we have done in recent history with a lot less cause. It is the West who have established its fine to invade sovereign states on specious grounds, that it is fine to break up sovereign states to ‘protect’ ethnic minorities. It is the West that claims most of the bloody world is its legitimate ‘sphere of influence’.
What goes around comes around and at least Georgia is actually on Russia’s borders. There’s no ‘takesy backsy’ in international politics and no amount of pretending that Russia is doing anything the West hasn’t done and is still doing all over the world, no amount of only underlining our impotence, chest-thumping will make a blind bit of difference to the fact that Georgia is getting punished for its own stupidity.
More fool them for believing the West would be willing or able to help. The Hungarians, the Kurds and the Shia could have told them about their western encouraged uprisings and the diddly squat help they got.
They’ve learnt - just like Iraq, just like Nicaragua, Chile and Guatemala and Cuba, just like Grenada, just like Afghanistan - that Big Powers don’t take kindly to those that step out of line.
And again compared to what we did in Iraq - the disgraceful shattering of cities like Fallujah to suppress ‘rebellions’ Georgia is getting off incredibly lightly.
Honestly the rank bloody hypocrisy of some in this thread sickens me. These are the rules of the game the USA plays by. Might makes right so stop bloody whining when someone else play by the same rules.
tagos, fwiw, the majority of people posting here were every bit as vehemently against the invasion of Iraq by the US as they are Georgia by Russia. And no, Georgia does not deserve to be slaughtered as a country or as individuals for what it/they did in S. Ossetia. Russia’s response has been hugely over the top, and they’ve been lying a whole lot lately.
If you want to say, fine, they can lie all they want, OK, but don’t try to say that Georgia had it coming or that we here deserve it. The huge majority of Americans were deceived by their government, and on the boards here, about half of us still didn’t want to go into Iraq. Russia has long since left the borders of S. Ossetia and Abkhazia behind and are into Georgia proper. You can support that, oppose that or ignore it, but don’t try to justify the way you are, by telling us it’s our fault. The Brits have a much longer history of colonialism than we do, so you’re not exactly in a position to throw stones here.
Maybe Russia is not determined to be an empire again, but Vladimir Putin is. He’s a big horses’ ass and I wrote to the Kremlin and told them so. Putin is still wishing on a star for the return of the USSR. Its as though he hasn’t accepted the progression of Russia, he wants to regress.
Really, I tend to think that we here in the US don’t really have a damn thing to say about this. I don’t know what can be said.
The gall of Bush to go around and say that you can’t invade sovereign nations is truly astounding. Too bad we lost all credibility. And guess what? This is the direct consequence of having weakened our position for no goddamned reason. Russia knows that Americans are war-weary and that we have no tolerance for any more wars. Why else do they feel comfortable doing this?
And now we have some deal with Poland to piss off Russia even more. Bush is such a fool it’s ridiculous. What the hell does he think this stupid-ass missile “shield” will accomplish? It is essentially a way to make Russia mad without actually providing any kind of strategic benefit. Which is as horrible an idea as it sounds. Now Russia is saying that it’s retaliation for doing so will move beyond diplomacy. What does that mean? Nobody knows, but it doesn’t sound good. And why? So we can prop up our own little pro-western strongman in Georgia? I don’t give a shit about them.
Russia got sick of our BS, so they called us on it. We need to stop screwing around with their sphere of influence.
It’s high time we here in the US stopped trying to be the world’s protector. It’s a thankless job first of all, and secondly we are no longer powerful enough to do it. Let these Eastern European nations fend for themselves. What are we going to do? Fight WWIII? Of course not. It’ll just have to be accepted that the majority of the world won’t be able to live free. It sucks but it seems like it’s human nature.
How about the gall of all the other European countries? Are you truly astounded by their opinions? Is that your definition of credibility? This sounds less like world opinion and a whole lot like your negative opinion of Bush.
Yah, screw a country who has supported us with troops and wants to join NATO so Russian troops don’t drive tanks down Main Street. Why would any countries like Poland, Ukraine,Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia be worried just because Georgia got invaded by Russia. It’s probably just a fluke. Russia would never invade them… again. Or at least on a Tuesday. Well, maybe Tuesday’s in months with an “R” in them.