Is Science a new Religion?

The essential element of a religion is (as Gaspode’s post points to):

WORSHIP!

When you get people gathering around a statue of the Great Darwin and chanting “Oh great Darwin” all in unison, you can start talking about a true religion of Scientism. People who believe in the Big Bang don’t congregate to share a common experience. Until, then all you have is the fact that we go around assuming what hasn’t been directly proven to us. That doesn’t make us religious.

In fact ARGUMENTUM AD VERECUNDIAM isn’t necessarily a fallacy. If we couldn’t presume something was true because someone with expertise in that field said it was, our collective pursuit for knowledge would be quite fruitless. Does China really have more than 1 billion inhabitants? Are you sure? Did you count them yourself?

Science is a new religion in the same way that blue is a new smell.

You don’t have to be able to do the math of the big bang to be convinced of its likelihood. What you do have to do is be a skeptic. That’s what the scientific method is all about: is the experiment mathematically sound, statistically solid, repeatable by other scientists, etc… Science is all about rigor and proof, which is why peer review journals exist. The calculations which led to the theory of the big bang have been repeated by many physicists with the same result.

And other physicists disagreed. And that’s OK - as long as the topic continues to be subjected to more rigor and more technological advances, we will eventually come to a more defensible position one way or the other. Or a third way, for that matter.

Carl Sagan dealt with this issue repeatedly throughout his career. His most thorough writing on this was the book The Demon-Haunted World: Science As a Candle in the Dark, which he wrote late in his life. I can’t think of many people who wanted to believe in extraterrestrial contact more than Sagan, yet due to science he was quite certain it had never happened in his lifetime.

I think the point about tv being a religion is pretty relevant, although I would extend it to all of the media.
Heck, after college, that’s most people’s perception of science: some 3 minute piece about the latest discovery on the news. Although oftentimes I’ve felt that some of the research they’ve shown wasn’t well founded, just sensational enough to make a good story.

I think major differences I’ve seen addressed so far are

  1. science is based on peer review and repeatable observation.
  2. Religion usually involves worship.

Point one I think matters little to the average Josephine, since they never actuate any peer reviews, or read them for that matter, and with a few exceptions can’t usually make the same interpretations of observations that
trained scientists make.

Point two is probably the part that most folks in the west would drop out of their religion if they had a choice anyway. “Hey I don’t have to go those boring services anymore? Count me in!”

Something that the Brittanica definition missed is that religions usually provide a cosmology or explanation of what the universe is and how it came about. This is precisely where science has supplanted religion: it provides the new cosmology for the masses. How this cosmology came about (peer review/observation) matters little to them since they had no part in it.

My point is not that it is a fallacy, my point is that science can be just another “holy book” to so many people. I don’t equate religion with fallacy (even though I don’t subscribe to a religion).
Furthermore, I don’t equate accepting things solely on faith with religion. Many religions are (or were) not based around some holy scripture, but on direct experience of the deity through religious experience. Of course they presumably had to believe in the diety to experience it, but what they learned came from their own experience not some sermon by a presumed expert. Equivalently, if you don’t have faith in an empirically verifiable world you won’t experience science directly.

Just to note, I’m playing devil’s(;)) advocate here.

Much of this has a lot more to do with what the average person who perceives what science is instead of what it actually is.

Then again, a lot of people accept what that TV tells them at face value, without bothering to check or think about that (mis)information.

This is just what I like to call the “flat earth” principle, based on an essay by Isaac Asimov called “The Relativity of Wrong.”

I live on the island of Montreal. It’s a rather large island, throughly developed, and only rarely (say, once every 2 months) do I find myself leaving it. If I were convinced the Earth was flat, how significant an error would that be?

Remember, I’m asking how significant the error would be. If I spent the rest of my life on this island, never planning any lengthy trips, never needing to navigate using maps or stars or GPS, what practical difference does it make to me if the Earth is round or not? If my life changes, though, and I do have to make long trips, I’ll have to accept the Earth is round if I expect to use maps with any accuracy, and if I expect to understand time zones and whatnot.

Now, in my day-to-day life, how important is it that I understand all the laws of physics as described my modern scientists? It isn’t, really. I keep track of the ones I need, involving electricity, because I work with electronic devices and have to be aware of the risks involved. Knowledge of atomic theory isn’t required for my day-to-day life, but if I started working with radioactive substances, my long-term survival may depend on me learning the appropriate theories and procedures.

This pattern is always going to be true: a lay person knows as much “science” as is required for their day-to-day routine. If they know less, relying on instinct or good luck, they will perform their routine badly or dangerously. Whole speheres outside that day-to-day routine exist, but are functionally irrelevant. Inaccurate beliefs about these fields is neither fatal nor important. The point of science teaching in elementary and high schools is not to give a student extensive knowledge of ideas they will never apply (as often may seem the case to a student who wonders if this class on valences will ever be useful) but to impress upon that student that other fields of science do exist and if you ever need them, you will have some idea how to reacquaint yourself with them.

The idea that science is concealed from the so-called “common man” is ludicrous. If the common man can read, very little is hidden from view. Every school has a library and every town has a school. Someone who believes that scientists are deliberately concealing knowledge to preserve their own position should have the argument turned back on them: what do you do for a living? Is it skilled labour? Could a person with no prior knowledge of what you do walk in off the street and replace you? Does what you do require years of training and/or experience? The scientist is in the same position. If a lay person wants to know everything a scientist knows, that person must be prepared to dedicate years of study, as the scientist did. You can forego the years of study and take advantage of the scientist’s final discoveries, if you like, but then it becomes important to know what scientist to listen to. You will presumably want the one whose theories have been supported by the greatest amount of evidence, and whose theories have been thoroughly examined and challenged by other scientists to find any flaws or omissions.

A religion requires you to take certain concepts as fact on pure faith, believing them though no evidence can be presented. Science also offers up certain concepts as fact, but things that are accepted as true without some damn good evidence are extremely rare. Not all scientists believe in Big Bang theory, but if they (or you) study the ongoing debate, there is some evidence supporting the theory and no real evidence contradicting it. The scientist who finds solid contradictory evidence can become famous, so there is a strong impetus to do so, despite claims that scientists are dogmatic and unwilling to accept contradiction. Big Bang theory itself is less than a century old, and it has risen to prominence because it provides a (mostly) satisfactory explanation for an expanding universe and no-one has yet discovered anything that thoroughly undermines it.

If any scientist wanted to challenge Big Bang theory or any other theory (and fields that are blindly accepted are extremely rare, again because the person who demolishes an existing theory and replaces it with something else has a sure ticket to fame), they will be subject to peer review. Challenging an existing and accepted theory requires some damn good evidence and science has inertia, only moving when it has to. Nevertheless, it does move.

I don’t think anyone in this thread has made such a strong claim. Concealing would require an effort to hide.

Saying that anyone could investigate any scientific discovery for themselves is ludicrous. Having access to books doesn’t mean you have access to a particle accellerator or a sophisticated telescope. On top of that, some people are, let’s face it, just not bright enough. It’s like saying, with training anyone can run a marathon in under x time. Some people can’t even run, some people just aren’t fast, and many many more just don’t have the will to do it.

But whether or not they could, people don’t. That’s the point.

[quote]
The scientist who finds solid contradictory evidence can become famous, so there is a strong impetus to do so, despite claims that scientists are dogmatic and unwilling to accept contradiction.

[quote]

Yeah, you might be famous, but if you fail, your career is over, and everyone will line up to try and shoot you down and make it as hard as possible. I wonder how much evidence has been ignored or reasoned away because it might bring controversy.

I think that it would be hard to directly equate science with religion. We have two distinct words in our language and they’re useful that way. Yet science would do well to consider how it has come to resemble an established religion instead of pooh-poohing criticism with the weight of it’s own authority.
Some things that might help:
A historical/cultural perspective on science’s roots and motivations for research.
A educated background on the varieties of world religions and why they were so persistent. This persistence may indicate continued behavior patterns in humans despite a new cosmology from science.

Religions were/are not just make believe play games, they serve genuine psychological needs, pass on wisdom, and help people live together. Science has provided the dominant cosmology which placed religions in doubt. Now people try to turn to science for the same needs that science is ill suited to fill because they no longer believe in their religion. One of these needs is a solid world view that is not up for debate. Something that, in principle, science cannot provide, yet through people’s inherent need to feel secure they think it does.

I think the comparison to religion did not come out of the blue. It’s an indication that there’s something to think about. Yet the hesistance to approach this problem with an open mind and a willing attitude ironically only shows how science does resemble a religion.

Perspective:

Sorry, but I think you’re dead wrong. With the vaning popularity of organized religion, people with a need for spiritual comfort are not turning to science, exactly because it can’t provide a world view for them. Hence the rise of ‘magic’, new age and what have you. Look in old newspapers: Pre WWII there were hardly a daily paper that carried a horoscope, find one today that doesn’t.
I’m leaving TV preachers, Elvis cult and aliens out of this for now…

I certainly have to acknowledge the rise in popularity of new age and old magical traditions. But I think that has more to do with the loss of power in the church.

Many people remain convinced by the rationality and sheer technological power of science and will not turn to these traditions. Most folks don’t read the horoscopes for anything but fun. Even the people I know that take astrology seriously don’t regard horoscopes in the paper as anything but a curiosity.

Examine the trend of people placing their hopes for immortality into science. First it was being cryogenically frozen, now folks hope to have their thought patterns (or whatever) uploaded onto a computer. I would say that there is an undue importance placed on virtual reality precisely due to emotional needs that science can’t meet.
Some people have adopted the attitude of “science will save us” and are more than ready to give science magical powers that it doesn’t have.

OTOH, science isn’t directly responsible for this, but if we do not recognize how and why people can place undue importance on science, then it’s objectivity could be weakened.

don’t know how new it is.

the scientific priesthood is on the same ego trip as the religious priesthood. need to keep other people ignorant to make yourself look “intelligent.”

why don’t we have a national recommended reading list so people can easily find good books on whatever subject they are interested in? i asked at a library about such a list, they didn’t have anything close to it. they promote certain authors each month. we randomize tons of information, much of it trivial, and expect people to get something useful out of it?

Dal Timgar

Perspective:

You have a good point and make a convincing case. I was a little sloppy when refering to horoscopes in newspapers. Yes, people I know who believe in astrology do not take it seriously, either. I put it in my post to illustrate how ‘magic’ has been made more and more socially acceptable during the past 60 or so years.
Christian fundamentalist (IIRC) regard astrology as heresy and evil, and you are right that the fact that astrology, wicca, the cult & occult are becoming more and more socially acceptable, is in part because the traditional churches are losing the grip. Incidentally, I think this is spawned from the U.S. which was the first major power in the world to not have a ‘state church’. This multitude of churches/congregations led to an array of interpretations and blew the christian church - as a social and political entity - apart.

Aliens to the rescue, cryogenics, downloading your mind - and religion - all comes from our personal fear of death, in my opinion. With traditional religion losing its grip, it’s no surprise that some people turn to ‘science’, albeit the popular science of Discovery TM.

And ‘science’ use this. During the 80’s, it was easier to get a grant for research inte a farmaceutical against pre-mature, male baldness, than into the study of… oh… the sexual habits of the dolphin? Research facilities need to make money too and people are people.

The only thing I study, is human beings. It’s immensely interesting, and the more you learn about people, the more it actually fits together, even if it doesn’t make sense.

BTW, how do you guys get that nifty TM to be positioned a little higher up?

The two are conneceted for a thoughtful transhuman. I’m planning on a life insure policy I will use to have myself cryongenically frozen in the event of death. If science advances far enough, and I am brought back, my goal will be to live as long as possible. Tipler machines offer a great way to acheive a kind of immortality. A subjective one. Cryogenics are your last shot to make the cut the next time they change the definition of dead. If you can find a way to make a couple hundred years, then you will probably be able to find a way to make a couple thousand years. The first immortals may be walking the planet today. I’m gonna do everything I can to see that I end up as one of them.

People who think such things are impossible haven’t been paying too much attention to the news coming out of genetic labs the last few years. Electronics and perception are getting closer to each other all of the time, and there is a constant amount of work bieng done on cryogenics. These sciences are in their infancy. I’m betting on future success.

DaLovin’ Dj

DaLovin’ Dj,
Didn’t mean to say those things were impossible. Although high hopes may have distorted the estimates of probability by some.
Mostly I just wanted to show how science and religion are crossing boundaries because of innate human desires that haven’t left just because folks don’t believe in a creator god.

There is an easy way for the masses to differentiate their belief in science from religion. A person does NOT have to hold a thorough understanding of a scientific theory to have a solid reason to believe that it is correct.

Scientific theories make predictions that can be tested. You don’t have to completely understand the theory to be compare most predictions to reality. Some fine examples.

You don’t need to understand Maxwell’s equations to see that radio and TV work. Clearly, there is at least a large kernal of truth there, for the equipment to work so well.

You don’t need to understand relativity (general) to know that it predicted light would be bent by gravity (a completely unanticipated effect) and that when it was checked out it was true. In fact, relativity predicted many contrary and unrealized effects that upon investigation are correct. You don’t have to understand the theory to be fairly comfortable that there must be something to it.

Big bang and inflationary models of the universe predicted a background radiation pattern. It was found. There are many other examples.

If I tell you that I can predict where a cannon ball will land when shot from a cannon using math, you do not need to understand the math to check my predictions. If my predictions are very accurate and repeatable, you could pretty well conclude that there is a good chance that I am doing it right.