Is Section 8 housing causing a crime wave in mid-sized cities?

I’ve always accepted the liberal conventional wisdom that crime does not follow poverty, it follows concentrations of poverty: Crowd poor people into a low-income neighborhood or a Cabrini Green project and they’ll just reinforce one another’s bad social habits. Spread them out among the more affluent and they won’t. But this article from this month’s Atlantic Monthly suggests they might actually take the new opportunity to prey on the weak.

I still think dispersion of poverty is better than concentration, but the salubrious effects might take a generation or two. What is to be done in the meantime?

The same article, BTW, points out that Section housing really has had some very good effects:

Let’s stick with Cabrini Green as you already brought it up. Essentially, you had a really high concentration of drug dealers in one central location. The government thinks that if it destroys the central location, then the drug dealers will move on. But, drug dealers are drug dealers, they moved but didn’t change at all. The problem being, they were relocated into areas that already had drug dealers and territories set up. That’s why Chicago had insane murder rates up until I think 2003. Anymore, it seems that the initial blood bath has all but ended, since the murder rate has fallen drastically since then.

Nowadays, that might get you accused of racism

Well, it’s only going to help people who want to be helped, people who probably wouldn’t have been there in the first place except the criminals took over and they didn’t know where to go or how to get out.

That study is the one that depended on cherry picking those given help to leave the projects. That is what led to the problem - they assumed that everyone in the projects would thrive outside - in reality it turned out that when everyone leaves, they take their problems with them. They could cherry pick and save some - but when everyone left it created new crime zones.

The article is interesting.

I agree. I’m pretty confident that I could run a successful anti-poverty program if I were allowed to be very picky about the participants. Especially if I were allowed to use some objective standard, such as a multiple choice test or a credit score.

Indeed, the success of that study underscores the problem that many poor people are not poor because of circumstances but because of who they are. That sort of person is likely difficult to help.

The article later says they heavily screened the families in that study before participation, and only families who really wanted to move actually did.

It has always been true that crime flourishes in poorer areas. this is because:

  1. when middle-America wants drugs, it prefers to buy them outside their ‘nice’ neighborhoods
  2. poor people traditionally have filled the role as purveyors of illegal commodities (drugs, sex, guns, gambling). This because other careers haven’t been open to them
    3)law enforcement is lax in poor areas
    Once again, and indictment of america’s hypocrisy: why doesn’t the 7-figure wall Street executive score his coke in his own neighborhood? He wants his high, he just doesn’t want the lawlessness that comes with drug traffiking, in HIS neighborhood!

4)poor people need money, and two ways to get money are theft and robbery
5)poor people need money, and another way to get it is prostitution
6)poor people want drugs, too, and need money to get them (see 4 and 5 above)

A 7 figure income individual doesn’t go to the bad part of town to score his drugs.

Marc

Poverty is not a lack of money, it’s a lack of social will. The lack of money is the end result. My parents lived through the great depression without any government assistance. They had less in terms of amenities than poor people have today. However, they were spiritually wealthy. By that I mean they had character, a sense of right and wrong, and a social group who were similarly motivated to a high standard. The result was a good work ethic and a desire to succeed without harming others.

Sorry, define “social will”?

If you lack money, I don’t care how much “social will” you may have, you’re poor.

Some people may be poor because of a lack of drive. Some are poor because of a lack of opportunities. Some are poor because of lack of ability. Where do you get the great wisdom to tell one from another?

Not all poverty is the result of a moral failing, nor is all wealth the natural result of moral virtue. (Though it may be comforting to the well-off to believe otherwise.)

No offense, but how the hell do you know? How do you know your old man didn’t steal hubcaps to make it through hard times?

Cite?

I have an uncle who was making well into the six figure range who would go to bad areas to score drugs.

But see, he wasn’t making SEVEN figures, so obviously…

-Joe

If you’re making SEVEN figures, you can send your butler to score.

The murder rate in my small city is increasing and I think every murder so far this year is associated with a section 8 housing project.

As is seemingly the problem with CCTV, ‘crime crackdown’s’ tend more to disperse the problem, than actually solve anything.

Interesting debate and I’m going to keep reading as this issue touches on where I live.

I’m in a mixed neighborhood, commonly refered to by the suburbanites as “the hood” here in Columbus. We’ve had a lot of gentrification but we also have the highest concertration of poor and of social services for the poor in my little neighborhood. What I find interesting is…

We actually have a lower crime rate in this neighborhood than the surrounding “affluent” neighborhoods. Of course being the funny-guy that I am, I always say this is because our poor criminally minded folks go over there to steal stuff then bring it back to their homes here. :stuck_out_tongue: I do wonder if there is some truth to it though… certainly the folks in those neighborhoods are of the opinion that “they” come over from here to break into their BMW’s

Completely unscientific but I have noticed a substantial increase in crimes (based purely upon news coverage, etc.) being reported in the suburbs areas that were originally founded in the 50s as white middle class neighborhoods and have seen shifts in demographics as the urban poor have pushed outward from the city center. It is not uncommon for me to see a headline “Two shot outside bar” and whereas I’d previously automatically assume this maybe in my neighborhood that I now am no longer surprised when it is out in the burbs.

Anyway, not very GD of me tossing out personal observations and thoughts but hopefully it’ll stir more convo in this thread as it is of interest.

MeanJoe

How old are you?