Is sharing your belief that you have literally heard God speak witnessing or psychosis?

[Novelty_Bobble]

@Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup

Devout Catholic though I am, if I woke up one morning, and God said to me, in words, “Go ye to the Jack in the Box on Veteran and Santa Monica, order ye a breakfast platter, and eat ye of it. And when thou hast eaten of it, SHOOT YE UP THE JOINT…”

…I’d go me to a treatment facility instead.

Yours is a very good example of why many of us consider gods to be purely man-made.
You happily take advice from him when that aligns neatly with your own moral compass but even though he is omnipotent and infallible you choose not to follow a very clear instruction, why? Because you’ve clearly used some other measure to judge what is the “right” thing to do. (and it is the same measure that us non-believers use as well, we just don’t insert a supernatural deity into the equation…“unnecessary” as Laplace would have it)

Don’t get me wrong, that is a good thing. If two random people came up to me and one said they were going to treat me according to their own internal moral compass and the other said they were going to treat me according to the words of their god then I know which one I’d be far more scared of.

[Czarcasm]

@kanicbird

It would take a medical diagnosis which I doubt anyone is qualified to make over the internet.

And God can also speak to atheists, God does not have to respect their beliefs and can chose to speak to whoever God wants to

But, as an atheist, if I heard a voice in my head I wouldn’t jump to the conclusion that it had a supernatural source-I would seek medical help.

[kayaker]

@DSeid

In GD a thread exists where a poster shares that he has received word from God: “The democrats will win their election, but then comes the knife”

The moderator ruled this “witnessing” and judged expressing concern about someone hearing the voice of God as a possible sign of a psychotic break to be a slam at the poster.

When I originally read the OP, I thought it was as a joke. Then I thought the moderator was playing along with it.

You would think god woulda clued me in at some point. Indeed, kind of rude not to.

[DrCube]

Every religious person I know claims to speak with God. Discuss things, ask for guidance. I don’t see what makes the OP of the other thread so weird for doing the same.

[TriPolar]

@DSeid

The specific of our op is not the subject as is the broader subject but as the thread continues he has gone on to state:I have a hard time reading that as anything other than literally perceiving himself as hearing the voice of an angel.

Try to do some searches it does seem that isolated auditory hallucinations do occur outside of the context of psychosis. That some, or even many, would include religiosity should not surprise.

FWIW I would take the position that delusions can not only be harmless but can, in certain contexts, even be beneficial to particular individuals’ function.

One article I found tried to make the distinction that benign isolated hallucinations and delusion in otherwise “normal” people are not about the individual as often as they are as part of psychosis.

The other bits I can glean seem to reveal a two-edged sword - Religious hallucinations (that do not include exhortations to cause harms) are more likely to be culturally accepted, especially within certain cultural sub-populations, which leads to less negative social impacts. OTOH one that is part of a serious psychotic illness may be less likely to trigger others to get the individual to help out of the “respect” for the individual’s religious beliefs (as Wesley alluded happened to him).

In any case I for one can see no good to be gained by challenging someone’s delusions or perceived experience.

You’ve answered your question. You still use the words ‘delusion’ and ‘auditory hallucinations’ without those things being demonstrated. When someone says they’ve heard the physically manifested voice of god, something you should have heard if you were standing nearby, then you have some delusional behavior to consider. Otherwise, when you are just talking about the belief that god has communicated with a person in some supernatural way, you may consider the person delusion from the standpoint of an atheist, but it’s not really any different than an atheist with conscience hearing his own inner voice to tell him to be a better person.

You asked about the line between religious experience and psychosis, and I don’t think it’s even a line at all, psychosis would involve a pattern of irrational behavior that would exceed even auditory hallucinations. For instance, not only hearing the voice of god, but believing god as told you to act in a way that is harmful to yourself and others, and then acting upon those words. And repetition of such things as well.

As far as questioning such things, it’s not rude per se, it’s just not desired among the faithful who are engaging with others about their common belief system. I doubt you would attend a church service and interrupt a religious reading to say “How do we know God was talking to Moses and Moses wasn’t just winded after climbing up Mt. Sinai and mistook the wind for the voice of God”. That would be rude. If you can find someone who will engage in such a conversation in a different context they may be offended, but that’s their problem.

[Mangetout]

I think there’s a false dichotomy here - it could be witnessing and psychosis - indeed, I expect there are many dopers who would insist that’s the case.

It would still be a set/subset thing though - because witnessing can also be about peace and love and stuff, without any booming voices.

[Me_Billy]

I don’t believe in god, but however I am open minded…

It is possible for someone to hear something and for them to believe it was a message from god and for them to not be psychotic nor mentally ill.

In my opinion, there would be a scientific explanation. That would include someone else playing a prank on them. But what matters is that the person truly believes it was the word of god.

I have no problem with that. People are entitled to think whatever they want. (Although I may not agree.)

Here is a video of Jesus turning water into wine (prank). I would not fault someone for believing it was true…

Jesus Turns Water Into Wine Prank

[Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup]

@Novelty_Bobble

Yours is a very good example of why many of us consider gods to be purely man-made.
You happily take advice from him when that aligns neatly with your own moral compass but even though he is omnipotent and infallible you choose not to follow a very clear instruction, why? Because you’ve clearly used some other measure to judge what is the “right” thing to do. (and it is the same measure that us non-believers use as well, we just don’t insert a supernatural deity into the equation…“unnecessary” as Laplace would have it)

Don’t get me wrong, that is a good thing. If two random people came up to me and one said they were going to treat me according to their own internal moral compass and the other said they were going to treat me according to the words of their god then I know which one I’d be far more scared of.

And this post is exactly why I don’t trust many anti-theists in discussions such as these.

First, my relationship with God is not such that it is manifested in English words, or words at all. He transcends such simple things. Words would be insufficient for the depth of communication that we have. Second, an instruction to shoot up a fast food joint would be entirely inconsistent with God’s message and will.

Therefore, any specific auditory message such as the one I described would logically be more likely to be a hallucination rather than the work of the Divine, and would warrant diagnosis rather than obedience.

These things are easily understood from my post. I’m curious as to why you would go so far afield as to make some of the representations that you did (including, but not limited to, the idea that refraining from shooting up the JitB is my own moral idea and not God’s), if in fact there is a reason other than a desire to prove your set of beliefs superior to mine.

[Duke_of_Rat]

I’d classify it as the same thing as hearing your dog talking to you.

[Czarcasm]

@Duke_of_Rat

I’d classify it as the same thing as hearing your dog talking to you.

But dogs exist and can be seen by just about everyone, so I would have to assume that all those that said they would keep an open mind about those who say God spoke to them would keep an equally open mind over the more likely possibility that a dog spoke to them.
Right?

[QuickSilver]

Dogs speak to me all the time. I simply have trouble understanding what the hell they are saying.

[Duke_of_Rat]

@Czarcasm

But dogs exist and can be seen by just about everyone, so I would have to assume that all those that said they would keep an open mind about those who say God spoke to them would keep an equally open mind over the more likely possibility that a dog spoke to them.
Right?

Absolutely. Ask David Berkowitz.

[Novelty_Bobble]

@Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup

And this post is exactly why I don’t trust many anti-theists in discussions such as these.

There’s nothing to trust or distrust. Nor is there anything in my post about “anti-theism”

First, my relationship with God is not such that it is manifested in English words, or words at all. He transcends such simple things. Words would be insufficient for the depth of communication that we have.

So this is something that you do and a way you behave that you do without instruction at all? Something innate perhaps? Almost as if it were instinctive?

Second, an instruction to shoot up a fast food joint would be entirely inconsistent with God’s message and will.

Not entirely inconsistent (according to the various texts).
Gods are not beyond genocide never mind a simple bit of mass-murder.

Therefore, any specific auditory message such as the one I described would logically be more likely to be a hallucination rather than the work of the Divine, and would warrant diagnosis rather than obedience.

You make my point for me. You’ve already decided what constitutes “good” and “bad” and filter any “messages” through that. I suspect you also cherry pick the nice bits of the bible (or relevant text) and discard or rationalise away the bad.

These things are easily understood from my post.

Sure, I know why you do what you do.

I’m curious as to why you would go so far afield as to make some of the representations that you did (including, but not limited to, the idea that refraining from shooting up the JitB is my own moral idea and not God’s),

I sincerely hope it is your own moral idea and that it is the same basic moral code that we all have and that comes instinctively to the majority of humans.

if in fact there is a reason other than a desire to prove your set of beliefs superior to mine.

I think your reasons for not shooting up the joint come from exactly the same place as mine. You insert “god” in there for your own reasons. I’ve never seen the need.
I don’t think my beliefs are superior if they reach the same outcomes, but they are certainly less complicated.

[DSeid]

@TriPolar

You’ve answered your question. You still use the words ‘delusion’ and ‘auditory hallucinations’ without those things being demonstrated. When someone says they’ve heard the physically manifested voice of god, something you should have heard if you were standing nearby, then you have some delusional behavior to consider. Otherwise, when you are just talking about the belief that god has communicated with a person in some supernatural way, you may consider the person delusion from the standpoint of an atheist, but it’s not really any different than an atheist with conscience hearing his own inner voice to tell him to be a better person.

You asked about the line between religious experience and psychosis, and I don’t think it’s even a line at all, psychosis would involve a pattern of irrational behavior that would exceed even auditory hallucinations. For instance, not only hearing the voice of god, but believing god as told you to act in a way that is harmful to yourself and others, and then acting upon those words. And repetition of such things as well.

As far as questioning such things, it’s not rude per se, it’s just not desired among the faithful who are engaging with others about their common belief system. I doubt you would attend a church service and interrupt a religious reading to say “How do we know God was talking to Moses and Moses wasn’t just winded after climbing up Mt. Sinai and mistook the wind for the voice of God”. That would be rude. If you can find someone who will engage in such a conversation in a different context they may be offended, but that’s their problem.

Sorry but I cannot follow your logic at all and I do not think it is me.

I have indeed given my own humble opinion on the OP: if non-present to others voices are heard (not “inner voices” but voices perceived as literal voices heard), be they voices of dogs, dogs owned by dyslexics (i.e. gods), aliens broadcasting into dental fillings, the individuals responsible for the artificial reality in which we live, or whatever, and they do not cause the individual functional and social disability and do not direct the individual to do things that are potentially harmful to him/herself or others, then they are at worst harmless, and in some cases may be useful.

Given that the literal hearing of voices believed to be gods or angels will be accepted in certain portions of society then that experience is perhaps a bit less likely to be harmful to the individual than say the experience of hearing alien transmissions through dental fillings, may even be beneficial to some. Maybe.

As isolated experiences none of them is psychosis. None is more “normal” than the other either. If any do not fit the conditions above then they are more likely part of a psychotic illness and being of religious content does not make that any less likely than being of alien transmission content.

It is no more and no less rude to challenge someone who believes aliens are speaking to him via his dental fillings than it is to challenge someone who believes that angels and God literally speaks as voices heard to him. It is also no more and no less potentially negligent for a concerned other to attempt to determine if someone with such a reported experience has other signs that would make one worried about psychosis and that would trigger an attempt to get that person to qualified help.

IMHO.