You’re right about this. I’ve been consistently saying this from my first post to this thread. Still, making an error and refusing to back down is not the same as threadshitting. Otherwise, 99% of Dopers are threadshitters. (100%, if limited to people arguing with me. :D)
I appreciate your perspective, but no, I don’t I do. That’s just something that people repeat.
Not in my experience, and not (apparently) in Sam Stone’s either.
Because a carefully researched and cited post gets the same treatment as a throw-away line. Either they don’t read it, seize on some asinine nitpick to focus on, or outright lie about it the way Hentor does about Sam Stone.
SenorBeef has the same problem a lot of liberals on the SDMB have - he cannot believe that those who disagree with him are doing so in good faith. It has to be because they’re EEEEEVIILLLL or trolls or whatever.
Rational debate is wasted on him - he isn’t listening.
Regards,
Shodan
But it’s not that he refused to back down, he continued to make up new lies.
What specific statements did I make that the following statements were replies to?
I never said I agreed with the OP, nor did I say that Romney did anything morally wrong, nor did I say that charity was bad, nor did I say that deductions were bad. I did not say anything that could justify his characterization of my position. He was just flat out lying.
Additionally, his tone could not possibly be conducive to genuine discussion. “So it is morally wrong to donate your money to charity” is never a statement that could ever add any value to any discussion because it’s so fucking ridiculous.
There are too many shrieking jackals on the left on this message board. And they do attack conservative posters much more, and with more vehemence, than other more liberal posters.
But, and this is a big but. But, that doesn’t mean Shodan isn’t a lying, piece of shit poster. Having “debated” him on more than one occasion in which he consistently resorted to lying about my posts, ignoring anything that contradicted his opinion, offering little actual substance, and, if he did, offering little to no support for that substance, I have no respect for his debating style, or him for that matter, at all.
I’m sure there are examples of poor Shodan being oppressed for nothing other than being conservative. But there are far more examples, like this thread, of him being maligned for being an willfully ignorant ass.
Here’s the thing: while it’s (barely) reasonable to ask whether charitable deductions are part of the problem the OP sees with the tax system (barely–nothing in the OP suggests either that the entire tax code is flawed, or that charitable giving in particular is the problem the OP objects to), Shodan didn’t do that. He said:
That’s not an honest question asking for clarification, that’s an obnoxious and incorrect and almost certainly dishonest rephrasing of the the OP.
A question would look like this:
And that would lead to a good discussion.
But this sort of dishonest thing (Ibn Warraq is another expert at the form) is bullshit and does not lead to productive discussions. All it leads to is people angrily defending themselves from an idiotic and off-base reductio ad absurdam attack.
I really honestly hope you’re a troll because the idea of someone who actually thinks the way you do, if genuine, bothers me. I mean, just that you exist in the world, and that there are more like you, genuinely bothers me. It is so mind boggling that such a magnificent and amazing instrument - the human mind - could be so willingly corrupted.
I have good faith disagreements with people all the fucking time. I’ve had plenty of good faith disagreements with xtisme and John Mace. Hell, I’ve had good faith disagreements with Der Trihs. He’s nuts, but I believe that he’s absolutely sincere in everything he says.
You pretty much have to be trolling. You’ve admitted earlier in the thread that you don’t feel like you can make substantive arguments and that you’ve pretty much resorted to snarking and sniping. And when I call you an asshole for snarking and sniping, suddenly you give me this “oh SenorBeef is a close minded liberal who can’t think anyone who disagrees with him is doing so in good faith!”
In the same thread, you essentially admit to trolling, and then when I call you out on said trolling, say “oh I’m being persecuted because I’m conservative, I’ve done nothing wrong!”
You are either seriously crazy (as in you don’t understand what’s going on in your own head) or you’re a troll.
Sam is never shy about posting cites; unfortunately, they are usually right-wing blogs and opinion pieces, which he apparently cannot distinguish from objective facts.
Shodan is a tool. I’m not posting about him. As is so often the case, the pitting becomes about the pitter as much as the pittee. What prompted me to post was your claim that your beef with said tool was uncolored by political leanings. I call … if not bullshit, a sore lack of self awareness.
Your recent pittings:
- An argument against the way some conservatives describe the wealthy.
- a personal beef with Oakminister, which originated in a thread where you criticized the “normal lock-step apologists coming in and defending anything right wing,” such as Bricker.
- a thread entitled “the hypocrisy of teabaggers.”
Recent posts include
“The republicans had their way from 2000 to either 2006 or 2008. … And they wrecked the world.”
“But the GOP really has been cartoonishly evil lately”
“It’s the sort of bullshit that the tea party uses. They claim to be non-partisan and all that but really they only hate democrats.”
Given that (and given no posts similarly critical of liberals or democrats), I feel safe saying you are not fond of conservative political views. You’re not a pure blind partisan, but the weight of your posting history puts you pretty firmly on that side of the ledger, whether or not that accords with your self-perception. Indeed, that last quote sounds pretty ironic indeed.
A left-leaning poster knocking a right-leaning poster about things they said in a political thread while insisting “it’s not about politics” merits a big :rolleyes:
Doing it on a left-leaning board where you can expect lots of applause is just that much weaker.
Look, if you want to wrestle with a pig, go for it. Just don’t expect people to not notice you’ve gotten mud on yourself.
It was an interpretation of your intentions, in backing up the OP of that thread.
That’s all about tone. You’re right in that the tone of Shodan’s post was not calculated to bring about a fruitful discussion. Problem is that the well is already poisoned in that regard. You can’t look at that post in isolation, and there’s a lot of history and context behind it.
[QUOTE=Shodan]
I appreciate your perspective, but no, I don’t I do. That’s just something that people repeat.
[/QUOTE]
shrug It’s the perception that I’ve gotten lately (say, the last 2-3 years…maybe more). You used to put a lot more into your posts, IMHO, and I used to enjoy reading what you had to say. Lately, my own perception is that you do mostly drive by partisan ‘gotcha!’ type snipes. Just my honest opinion, as someone who doesn’t really have any issues with you.
And, to be honest, you could say something similar about me, though I go for more drive by humor (well, I think they are funny anyway :p) and less partisan sniping. In my case it’s because I just don’t have the time anymore…I’m traveling a hell of a lot more for my job than I did in the past, and there is a lot more pressure on me than has been the case for years. My two cent psycho-babble analysis of you is that you are angry and feel hunted and isolated on this board, especially since so many conservatives have gone by the boards (as demonstrated by the notion that I’m a conservative here, which you and I both know is not the case).
And yet Sam’s name came up repeatedly, in many cases by board liberals, as one of the better ‘conservative’ posters. Sure, a few people dislike him and his posting style and what he’s got to say. But more simply disagree with him. Personally, I’ve always felt he was one of the better posters on this board, and was sad when he cut back on his postings, especially in GD. I think why Sam is respected (if not universally so) is BECAUSE he is more calm, reasoned, and logical. Even when folks disagree they disagree with his positions, not HIM.
IMHO, you’d be better off picking threads on subjects you really want to debate, coming in calmly and reasonably, and just debating the subject. Don’t go for the ‘gotcha!’ stuff by trying to show all liberals to be two faced hypocrites or whatever. Just debate the subject. Logically. Calmly.
Will this make you universally loved and admired around here? Nope. You will STILL get blasted by some. Heatedly. But just because some posters are doing that doesn’t mean ALL are.
So what? Hentor has a hard on for Sam and has for a while. There are going to be posters that have a hard on for you as well, just look at this thread. But not all posters do. And honestly, even Hentor (who dislikes me quite a bit and has told me on occasion that I’m an idiot) has stuff that’s interesting or valuable sometimes, if you take the time to read what he’s saying and don’t just knee jerk spar with him all the time. Same with Der Trihs. I’d say the same about most posters, with a few (thankfully now absent) exceptions.
A carefully researched and cited post, IMHO, is going to go miles further than a partisan drive-by snipe or ‘gotcha!’ type post. Again, if you are looking for universal validation then you should know by now that this ain’t the place…even if you were liberal and in general lockstep you’d get blasted sometimes, if just by the fringe posters and wannabe types. Calm and reason are going to get you a hell of a lot further. Again, JMHO FWIW.
I’ve never had any big issues with SenorBeef, even though we rarely agree, but again, so what? They are calling you ‘troll’ not because you are a conservative, but because of what you post. It DOES look like trolling when you come in with a couple of line partisan attack that’s designed to get the goat of an obviously left of center message board. Don’t do that. Pick your threads and put some effort into making your arguments in a calm, reasonable and logical fashion.
Or don’t. It’s really up to you. Doing so won’t make you loved by all. But you, and more importantly your views MIGHT get more respect. And, at a minimum it will give some perspective on things.
Last time…even if this is true, so what? He’s not the only one reading those threads. In fact, my guess is that most of the folks who ARE reading those threads are lurkers and aren’t even participating. If you really want to get your message out and get your points across, write to them. And do so in-depth. Clearly. Concisely. Calmly. Rationally. With good cites to back up your positions.
Anyway, enough of this soap box. I’ve actually expended more effort and time in this thread than I have in probably the last month or so. 
My unasked for advice is to really think about if you want to be on this message board, or if you’d be happier someplace else…or if maybe it’s time for a long break (I’ve done that myself a couple of times). This is supposed to be fun, entertaining and enlightening. I don’t think you are having fun anymore. I think you used too, and that you used to get a lot more out of this than you are now. Up to you.
-XT
Shodan, FWIW, this is my perception as well. You have let yourself become the elucidator of the right.
Were such a creature to exist, I can’t fathom any way in which it would resemble Shodan.
It seems odd to have people complaining about partisan sniping on this board.
Yeah, for starters he would had to be funny, not just thinking that he is funny.
Right, the problem he kept encountering was his arguing from either a fringe economic ideologuism or his cheerleading for a team he had decided to support just for fun, something he finally admitted just before climbing on the cross yet again (viz. this thread) rather than address honestly. If he’d based his arguments on facts instead, he’d have been fine. But he still can’t even admit he bought the Republican lie about Iraq’s WMD’s, for just one instance. He got called out routinely for simple dishonesty, but even now is telling himself it was all about hating conservatism. :rolleyes:
Bricker? A different style, but the same content, of dishonest result-based arguing and partisan cheerleading, and the same resorting to cross-climbing when his face got rubbed in it. The only difference in substance between him and **Sam **is his increasingly-frequent puerile gotcha tries, despite every single one of them blowing up in his face, and his constant attempts to discuss every single fucking topic like he’s arguing in appeals court on technical grounds. But is he attacked for holding conservative principles? Nope.
**Shodan **is just pulling this shit for fun. DNFTT, people. Come on now.
Are you trolling here, or do you honestly believe this?
As a Libertarian, I always thought if I had to choose between “Conservative” or “Liberal”, I’d choose the former. But I swear, the “righties” on this board make the liberals look intelligent. And much more willing to face facts.
(And, yes, I’d be just as disgusted by a “leftie” that was walking around with a mental image of a minority-baby-eating “consurv-tive” who rapes lesbian abortion doctors in his Hummer… on the way to his wetlands-oil-spilling job)
Based on the above, I know which party is more prone to concocting really horrifying Straw Men.
:applause:
This very thing is why I stopped posting in political threads within 6 months or less of my joining the board 2 years ago. I posted a reasoned argument, backed up by cites from highly relevant .edu-type professors of political science, and I nevertheless got jumped on by the lefty partisan bombthrowers who were solely interested in calling me a Fox News Bot, and attributing Fundie Xtian stupidity to me, despite the fact that I had (at the time) never even seen Fox News, and wasn’t an Xtian of any stripe. As I said in a previous post in this thread, I read and post here for amusement. Getting jumped on like that is not amusing. Consequently, I don’t post in political threads anymore. And even joining into politically based pittings frequently gets me grief. Starving Artist called me a liberal in disguise when I weighed in on a pitting of him for his stupidity, merely because I said I hate having idiots like him on my (political) side, because he reflects badly on the rest of us. Then the “leftards” started in on my “evidence” for SA’s “right-wing” (bullshit) position… OK, sorry, I’m done. Amuse yourselves as you see fit, but I’m done with both sides. Fuck you all.
So…
Yeah, right. This board really welcomes thoughtful conservatives, at least according to this thread. But only until we actually try to argue a conservative position. Then it’s “Gather the torches and pitchforks! We got another Righty to burn!”
If you really want “thoughtful conservatives”, then stop doing your damnedest to drive us away. I’m not holding my breath…
Okay, but here’s the thing: it’s not all liberals. Just as it’s ridiculous to suggest that, based on SA, rightwingers are prone to straw men, it’s ridiculous to suggest that based on Der Trihs et al, lefties are prone to pitchforking the rightwingers.
I certainly regret the tools on the left of this board, but I’ve tried and failed to do something about them, just as I’ve tried and failed to do something about the tools on the right. The best we can do, I think, is to ignore them. Shodan, by virtue of having enough brains to not be a tool if he wanted, is an exception to that advice.
You people are just too funny! This board (primarily GD and the Pit, but not always so) is almost nothing but nonstop conservative bashing and pile/ons when challenged, yet a handful of conservatives, most of whom are more polite and well-behaved even in our criticism than you are, have got you feeling mistreated and abused. 
The fact of the matter is that there is a deep vein of dishonesty and cowardliness that permeates this place which makes good faith efforts at honest debate impossible. It comes almost always from the board’s left wing posters and manifests as hyper-literalism, nitpicking, hair-splitting, misdirection, mischaracterization, obfuscation, insults, mockery and pile-ons.
Why do you think it is that on a board with two thousand or so active posters only a handful of conservatives continue to bother posting here, of whom only two or three are arguably posting in a way you consider to be honest and admirable, which is to say they don’t post that often, are occasionally willing to acknowledge that you’re right about something (the apparent gold standard for conservative intelligence and integrity around here), who don’t behave as abusively toward you as you do toward them, and who for the most part aren’t really conservatives to begin with.
BobLibDem says we get attacked for our personalities, but it is impossible to post civilly on this board as a true conservative without coming in for a rash of shit of the type I described just above. I was piled on and attacked/insulted mercilously in one of the very first threads I participated in here, and my offense? I dared to challenge the legitimacy of the word “homophobe.” Or take a look at my early posts in the Joe Paterno Pit thread. My offense? Merely suggesting, in a calm, reasoned and nonconfrontational way that considering Paterno’s long standing reputation for integrity we should wait until the evidence was in before condemning him. The response I got were shrieks of outrage and accusations that I was a pedophile enabler and probably pedophile myself.
For tbe first four or five years I was here I at least tried to play the game with consideration for my opponents and with an eye toward how my arguments might play to the board’s lurkers. I would become beligerent and insulting with posters who behaved like that toward me first, but for the most part tried to argue my case in good faith.
Finally however I just decided that trying to deal with this crowd in good faith was a fool’s errand and so decided to begin stating my case and my responses aggresively and in in such a way as to leave no doubt as to what I’m gettting at or wanting to say, and that approach has at least worked remarkably well at cutting out much of the obfuscatory semantics and hair-splitting that had gone on before and it leaves people with little doubt as to what I’m getting at. Then we can argue over that rather than how I’m leading up to it.
So in short, if you don’t like the way Shodan or I or some of the other conservative posters behave here, you have only yourselves to blame. What goes around comes around and if you want to be treated with respect you’re going to have to post in such a way that deserves it. I suggested once before that the board adopt a policy of arguing the issues without insults and derision and was met with a resounding “Hell, no!” for my trouble. Frankly I was surprised at how nakedly some of the board’s posters valued their ability to be childishly abusive. It was as if they felt that without the ability to be abusive and denigrating they’d have nothing left to make their case.
In closing I point to the title of this thread and to the OP himself as an example of some of the dishonest behavior I’ve been talking about. Number one, he constructs the title of his OP so as to suggest that Shodan is not only retarded but even moreso lately, neither of which is remotely true in any kind of objective sense. Secondly, the OP is being dishonest in attempting to portray himself as the moderate voice of reason and gentlemanly discourse while never missing an opportunity to call Shodan stupid, a characterization which is not only false but ridiculous on the face of it.
So again, if you want us few measly conservative posters to change our style so you won’t feel so ill used, I would suggest that you start working to create a board culture where the kind of debate you claim to want becomes tbe order of the day and politically based insults and derision are stamped out. On the other hand, if you want to reserve for yourself the right to belittle us for our politics and insult us personally, and to employ dishonest, obfuscatory tactics in your arguments, then we’re going to keep getting in your face whenever we think you’re wrong, and if you don’t like it then I’m afraid you’re just going to have to “deal.”
Here’s the problem. It’s ENOUGH of the liberals/lefties on this board pitchforking honest debate that it’s not worth it to go through the effort of a well documented, honest or reasoned post.
While Shodan’s recent performance may not be considered a well thought out approach, I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t make a difference if it was. There would be be a deluge of demonizing of him (or any conservative), his or her positions and his or her ideology in any hypothetical honest attempt at debate. After a while enough personal attacks and vitriol have been spewed that, fuck it, Libtard, Demoncrat, whiny librul pussies it is.