So you disagree then?
Seriously, it was an assessment. I offered evidence. But an adequate discussion/evaluation would entail an article, not that I have the knowledge to write it. I might be able to document the right’s embrace of the batshit over the past couple of years though. That subpoint is easier. Only in that case the left had the same problem in the 1960s and 1970s. The difference is that we successfully marginalized the lefty loons. In another 40 years polarities might reverse again.
I would just like to point out that in my relatively short time on this board, and as a slightly left-leaning guy in most ways, neither Shodan nor anyone else who proclaims to be a conservative have pissed me off. Anytime Shodan has responded to one of my political posts (I think the Herman Cain one is the only one so far), he was funny and not at all rude or stupid. In fact, I can’t think of any time any of these prominent conservative posters being rude to me because of political beliefs.
OK, but can you understand how the average individual might see the attacks in this place in the same light?
[QUOTE=FuriousGeorge]
I can’t necessarily disagree with this. I guess, though, shouldn’t this place, if it’s the bastion of ignorance fighting that it purports to be, strive to be better than that?
[/QUOTE]
It is about fighting ignorance, but like any place populated by humans, certain people gravitate to it because of similarities. In the past I believe the board was more balanced, but due to several factors the composition of posters changed over time. And a lot of ‘conservative’ ideas and ideals came increasingly under the gun. The boards center of gravity changed, and a lot of what I considered the best ‘conservative’ posters either left or stopped posting.
Was this due to hostility by other board members? You’betcha it was. But it was also due to folks staking out ‘conservative’ positions that became increasingly untenable, such as their stances on the war in Iraq (to name but one issue). This tainted a lot of the discussion and view points of ‘conservative’ ideas in general, I think. And, sadly (to me) a lot of real conservatives just left or stopped posting as much in the face of increasing board hostility and untenable positions. I often wish I was more able to hold up my end on the fiscally conservative end, but I just don’t have the time, training or ability to do so…and there hasn’t been a lot of calm, knowledgeable and articulate (all the things I’m not :p) conservative posters who have been willing to brave the fire and step up. I think they COULD do it and swing the board back to a more balanced center of gravity (I think it would still be left of center, but not as much), and I hope it slowly changes in the coming years. My own pendulum theory predicts that it will happen (eventually), assuming I live long enough and don’t get banned. 
Sure, but consider…how did those places become like they are? Same way really…like minds gravitated together to form their own ‘corporate’ cultures. Just like this place. I think this place is orders of magnitude better, culturally, than any of the places you mentioned there, but realistically the same dynamics are in play here. To chance the boards culture and center of gravity would take a lot of hard work by strong, thoughtful and knowledgeable conservatives. To a lot of posters on this board, such a beast is as rare (or even impossible) as a unicorn, but it could happen.
IMHO, intelligent people can be the most contentious folks out there. 
I think honest debates are possible here (much more so than those other boards you mentioned), but a lot of the conservative well has been poisoned. That said, I think more folks are open here to stuff than you seem to think. They might not AGREE…but I think an honest back and forth debate is more than possible.
-XT
Not ignoring the rest of your post, because, again, I agree with it. My point I guess, is at the end of it, if we want to be the place for honest intelligent debate and to hold ourselves as such, shouldn’t we police ourselves in that manner. I have absolutely no issue with an ideological slant either way. Be contentious. Be rigorous. Be intellectually demanding. However, be those things whether you agree with the ideologue or not.
My problem lies in the discrepancy in Shodan getting pitted with regularity for stupidity (rightfully so much of the time) while we have the shit flinging spider monkey not called to task except when some of his partisan compatriots are almost forced to in order to show how even handed they are and others pretend they don’t notice. Does that make any sense?
They’re also hurt by the moronic conservatives/trolls who still haunt this board. For every intelligent conservative post made in a thread there’s a cringeworthy “Obama is a socialist!” post that leads to a liberal dogpile. The actually intelligent conservative post then gets drowned out.
It will prolly not be a shock for anyone to learn that I have butted heads with both Shodan and xtisme quite often, but I wanted to be sure and give credit where credit is due: these are some of the best posts I’ve seen you make in recent years, xtisme. I don’t know if your self-professed lack of time for the boards recently has somehow meant that you’ve got a backlog of well-thought-out, quality posts built up in your head or something, but because we’ve often been at odds, I wanted you to know that IMO both the content and the tone of your posts in this Pitting have been excellent.
That’s exactly right. I couldn’t agree more with the addition of cringeworthy posts not being limited to conservative morons/trolls. I keep hearing about how fair and balanced the debate is in GD in general. I haven’t seen it. The amount of cringeworthy noise drowns out pretty much any reasoned honest debate.
Needless to say, I do.
What evidence? You made one unsubstantiated claim (conservative true believers respond by blurring the issues because they can’t defend the indefensible) and ignored the fact that the “Blue Dog” Democrats were severely disliked by the Democratic establishment, labeled as DINO’s and virtually marginalized within their own party (especially after the whole healthcare deal). Then there’s the whole “crazy” thing, but that’s nothing more than a value judgment.
Then there’s the whole “crazy” thing, but that’s nothing more of a value judgment than anything else*.
[QUOTE=FuriousGeorge]
Not ignoring the rest of your post, because, again, I agree with it. My point I guess, is at the end of it, if we want to be the place for honest intelligent debate and to hold ourselves as such, shouldn’t we police ourselves in that manner. I have absolutely no issue with an ideological slant either way. Be contentious. Be rigorous. Be intellectually demanding. However, be those things whether you agree with the ideologue or not.
[/QUOTE]
I think it gets back to world view, to be honest. Basically, if someone shares your worldview you are more able to cut them some slack, or perhaps just ignore them if they are really annoying, while if someone doesn’t you are more disposed to butting heads or getting seriously pissed off. And if you share a basic world view with a lot of folks, it’s going to turn into a feeding frenzy.
That said, I’ve seen folks like DtC and Der Trihs attacked in here plenty of times, and you’ve seen plenty of left on left sniping in this very thread. I think Shodan has come under fire because of his posting STYLE, not simply because he’s a conservative. Someone like 'luci (who I actually like, and don’t think is all that much like Shodan) doesn’t get hammered in the pit because, frankly, he shares a lot of the same worldview with the center of gravity on this board, and pitting him wouldn’t get much traction. Ideally, it would be as you say. But humans are on this board, so idealism gives way to tribal groupings sometimes. But, as I noted, that’s not always the case, and I’ve seen 'dopers of the same general world view rightfully busting the chops of someone who is an idiot, despite having a similar overall world view. Some of the smackdowns I’ve taken most to heart have come from 'dopers with similar world views as my own telling me I was being an idiot, in fact.
Yep, it makes sense, but look to the root of why it’s the case. Shodan doesn’t annoy me, for instance, because he and I share some level of world view…and I don’t notice (as much) when he goes off the rails. Not until I see a pit thread like this and really THINK about my impressions of his posting lately. Partly that’s because I remember when, IMHO, he was a much better and more entertaining and informative poster. But partly it’s because he just isn’t on my radar. Contrast that with The Gonz. He SERIOUSLY annoyed me. Repeatedly. To the point where I was getting PMs from mods saying I was getting on thin ice wrt to him. Why though? Well, because he was fucking annoying for one thing. But also, I think, because he and I did not share anything like a similar world view…so I noticed it more. If you think about it, some of the ‘liberal’ posters in this thread are actually able to stretch way beyond me because they are able to go beyond that shared world view and bust chops of their fellow liberals, while I really don’t notice the actions of most of the annoying posters with similar world views to myself.
Anyway, that’s my two cents (and cheap at double the price!!), FWIW.
-XT
Good stuff. Appreciate the time.
I appreciate that Bo. Believe it or not, that actually means a lot to me.
-XT
No worries…my pleasure. Hope it helps.
-XT
Sigh.
There’s not a lot of substance to this sentence. Actually, there isn’t any at all, other than “I disagree” and a little mind reading.
Look again. I gave 2 examples on the Republican side and a comparison with the Dems. It totals three. You gave… nothing.
Hey, I’ve aknowledged that I haven’t adequately established my case. But up to this point you offered.. nothing. Other than emotions and feelings.
Now that’s an argument. It’s not very good. But it’s an argument, right? I mean really, why should I take unsubstantiated remarks upthread seriously? We’re discussing the habits of conservative posters here, so I think my process remarks are relevant. You need to up your game OMG.
On the substance, “Severely disliked” is a characterization. “Drummed out of office” is a far more compelling fact. There’s no comparison. Look. The arch conservative Bob Bennett of Utah was primaried out of office, causing sheer terror among some highly conservative Republicans. That goes way beyond “Dislike” and into the borders of crazy-town. And when you consider death panels, Obama is a Muslim, long form birth certificates, etc., Iraq had WMDs you’re really into the fruitcake realm.
And “Marginalized” is false IMO. Obamacare was rejected: Lieberman took away the public option. What we got was Romneycare: the Affordable Choice Act was a triumph of centricism: heck, it was basically taken from Heritage’s template from the early 1990s.
Lefties self-police more, which is why I pick on Der now and then. The downside is that we form circular firing squads. The upside is that policing the borders keeps the 9/11 truthers off the reservation.
Well, yeah. I thought the guy was hilarious, albeit unintentionally. (Paraphrasing Scylla: “Gonz, you really don’t want to talk about banking – no, really: you don’t want to post about this”) I can see your point though: he had that perfect blend of intelligence and stupidity to drive the opposition to tears. Any stupider and he could have been ignored and wouldn’t have demanded a response. Any smarter and the flaws in his argument wouldn’t have been as encyclopedic.
Then again, his unsubstantiated moralistic (and usually naive) broadsides probably also stung. There’s no real analogue to that on the right, since moralistic Fundis can be smacked down forthwith.
Yes, I thoroughly disagreed with your nitpicking and fact-free assertions. I already said this once.
I think you should look again. You gave zero evidence of the “conservative true believers responding by blurring the issues because they can’t defend the indefensible”. And how could you? Not only is it a generalization, but it’s a generalization which you’ll “prove” by (1) finding those things you believe to be “indefensible” and (2) by finding someone who tries to defend that which you already consider “indefensible”. And, for what it’s worth, I did give you something.
It is? You think a coalition-- who is probably closer to Republicans than Democrats-- responsible for voting against cap-and-trade, Wall Street reform, watering down HCR and who butt head with Pelosi were well liked within their party?
And? I fail to understand what kind of point you’re making. It matters not how long you’ve held office or been associated with a certain position; if you become unpopular, you get ousted. I don’t see how that makes or proves “craziness”.
One, the Democrats rode the WMD train, too, so let’s not pretend otherwise. Two, if we’re really going to turn this into a pissing match of crazy, then I offer you three wonderful, completely fact-based, non-crazy assertions.
Republicans want you to die quickly.
The Tea Party wants to hang Blacks from trees.
Republicans want to bring back Jim Crow laws.
I mean, if we were really going to be completely honest, when it comes to “crazy”, the Democrats really have a stranglehold on it (that and race baiting). Now I’ve already prepared myself for the barrage of comments I will get detailing how the above comments are correct, so have at it.
Wow, some complete sentences, and paragraphs that were almost structured, this time. You’re improving, OMG.
Now, for the honesty part. That still appears to be a struggle for you. But we’re here to help.
Well, now I’m just wondering where I am on the “howling liberal monkey” spectrum.
What other explanation do you have for the fact that I’m pagedowning past Starving Artist’s posts in this and every other thread, but actually talking about Shodan?
I didn’t say *anything *about intellectual integrity. I’m not even certain where you got that.
I said that the three you mentioned don’t try to piss me off. **Shodan **trolls, and he *specifically *trolls Liberals. As a Liberal, he’s trolling me.
For the same reason, I also dislike OMG A Black Conservative and Starving Artist. They, however, aren’t as persistent in their attempts to get an emotional reaction out of their perceived political opponents, and that’s why my responses in this thread aren’t about them.