I see someone picking a pocket and steal a wallet. If I then pick that thief’s pocket and steal that same wallet, what crime(s) have I committed?
Receiving stolen property?
Depends on the jurisdiction, but just plain theft can still apply.
For example, if the legal definition of theft in that jurisdiction is just that you have actively obtained something that you knew belonged to somebody else without their knowledge and consent, you may have committed theft.
I would think in most places, at a minimum, possession of stolen property would apply, though.
But I didn’t steal anything from the person who owned it.
Why would it be anything other than just plain stealing? You literally stole something. I mean you stole something someone stole, but that’s still you stealing. What nuance am I missing?
As noted, it depends on the definition of ‘theft’ in that jurisdiction. In some, if you took actions to obtain something that belonged to somebody else, whether or not you took it from the rightful owner or whether it had already been stolen by somebody else may not be material to the law. YMMV, as nearly everything related to the law tends to be, of course
Here’s the Washington state definition.
RCW 9A.56.020
Theft—Definition, defense.
(1) “Theft” means:
(a) To wrongfully obtain or exert unauthorized control over the property or services of another or the value thereof, with intent to deprive him or her of such property or services; or
(b) By color or aid of deception to obtain control over the property or services of another or the value thereof, with intent to deprive him or her of such property or services; or
(c) To appropriate lost or misdelivered property or services of another, or the value thereof, with intent to deprive him or her of such property or services.
(2) In any prosecution for theft, it shall be a sufficient defense that:
(a) The property or service was appropriated openly and avowedly under a claim of title made in good faith, even though the claim be untenable; or
(b) The property was merchandise pallets that were received by a pallet recycler or repairer in the ordinary course of its business.
Since I might have implied (but never claimed) that I was going to keep the wallet, does it complicate matters if I then return it to the original owner?
A guy I know caught a person who had just picked up the cash he left on a restaurant table (for his check and tip). He beat the crap outa the guy.
There were charges all around. The thief for the theft and the guy for assault committed and causing great bodily harm (this was in the UK).
After the trial the thief was sentenced, and lost his probation he was serving at the time. The guy who beat the shit outa the thief was found guilty but received probation, but the “causing great bodily harm” charge remained on his record.
Jurisdiction is important to the OP.
ETA: the fact that the $$, once left on the table belonged to the restaurant was a big point and the reason the guy needed a good lawyer.
Hence The “possession of stolen goods” law - so they don’t have to prove you actually committed the original theft, just that the goods were stolen and are now in your possession. I assume the onus is then on the possessor to prove that they came into possession in what they believed was a legitimate manner.
OTOH, I would suspect the thief is unlikely to report a theft; but i can imagine a scenario where when he’s caught, he says “someone stole it from me” and if they can then pin that theft on you, then I don’t see why you would not be charged with theft too.
After all, if Bob puts his wallet down and forgets it, and you take a lonely wallet just sitting there, you can be charged with theft. You don’t have to affirmatively defeat the owner’s possession. (The NYC Subway cops were doing this many years ago - put a decoy wallet on a ledge, then arrest people who walked away with it who did not appear to be heading directly to the station attendant to turn it in.)
But the woman who stole it has incurred a liability for that property. So even if she has no claim over that wallet, she owns that wallet back, which you have deprived her of and now you owe to her.
Does it? Or is it the payer’s until the restaurant acknowledges the payment by picking it up?
This is where lawyers earn their country club fees.
(Old joke - two guys being held up… one turns to the other…
“Before he takes all our money, here’s that $50 I owe you…”)
At the time, he thought he was in the clear. After consulting with a barrister, he was worried because the money was left on the table and it then belonged to the proprietor.
Yes, as in @Procrustus’s cite of the Washington state law “intent to deprive” is a component of theft. As said, details will depend on jurisdiction, but intent is usually a component of theft.
If a pickpocket steals a wallet, and you then steal it from the pickpocket with the intent to keep it for yourself, that is theft.
If a pickpocket steals a wallet, and you then steal it from the pickpocket and return it to the owner, then you’ve not committed theft. Perhaps assault, menacing, or something else depending on how exactly you obtained the wallet from the pickpocket.
You also may have to convince a jury that you intended to return the wallet.
What about this?
Someone steals my bicycle, rides off with it, and takes it to his home. I walk by and see it from the street. Yes, obviously I could call the police and report what I saw, but if they even bother to respond it will probably be too late; he’ll hide it. Practically, the only way to get my bike back is to act now.
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He leaves it in his yard, leaning up against the fence next to the sidewalk. Without entering his property I can lean over and take the bike.
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He leaves it somewhere in the yard visible from the street, but I’d have to enter his property to take it back. Does it matter if it’s one foot or fifty feet from public space?
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He puts it in his garage, but leaves the door open, so I can see it from the street. Can I go into the garage to recover it?
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What charges am I liable for in these various scenarios?
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He calls the police, and (to my surprise) they show up before I’ve left. He claims he owns it and I stole it. I have no proof of ownership, and no witness to his theft. How do the police determine who’s the owner and who’s the thief?
You have no proof of ownership and no witnesses, but you’re somehow absolutely certain that it’s your bike, and not just one that looks like it?
That is absolutely not something you want to say to the judge at your sentencing.
Is murdering a murderer illegal? Don’t need answer fast, I did a good job of disposing of the body… I mean I’m just asking hypothetically.
It’s your bike; you own it. Of course, there might be evidentiary issues about proving this, but if the facts stated in your post can be proven, then you don’t committ any kind of theft offence by taking your own bike, no matter where you take it from.
If you enter someone else’s property without permission in order to take it, do you commit any kind of trespass offence? Depends on where this happens. At common law, simple trespass is not an offence. So entering someone else’s land, without permission, in order to retrieve your own property is only going to be an offence if it happens in a place where the legislature has enacted some kind of trespass offence, and these facts fall within it.
Yes, in most places, you do not commit trespass if you walk up to the front door and knock on it, or go into their yard to retreive your baseball. There’s a gate and a path and a doorbell, so people on their property is not unexpected. Open garage? Interesting question.
(The petty trespass law where I live, a person commits an offense if they come onto the property after having been properly notified they are not welcome on the property… i.e. the store caught you shoplifting and now they say “do not ever come into our store.” usually, a letter saying so is involved.)
Obviously, if you are taking your property you are not committing an offense in regards to that. If you break the lock or open the gate to drive off with your legally(?) impounded car, then opening the gate IIRC falls under break and enter.
My dad once told me of camping in Scotland - apparently you are entitled to squat/camp on open land anywhere for the night, the owner cannot ask you to move until the next morning. IIRC that has changed since the 1940’s.