Well, if the person no longer feels like they’re doomed then you’ve done a good thing. I believe that a person needs to face their fears, and have peace before they die. In the case of the terminally ill, if they feel that peace then perhaps euthenasia is a good thing. For the person who has inner-turmoil, and feels doomed, that is no way to leave this world. They have to confront those demons, and if they won’t, be shown by those around them why they have to.
You can’t force anyone to live, but you can’t condone what you think they are going to do. Be as comforting and supportive as you can be, and if they still kill themselves you can at least say you gave them a chance to see.
People who contemplate suicide are constantly being told it is a selfish act because of all the hurt and resentment it leaves behind in people who love them.
But rationally speaking, is it really always that bad for the survivors? If the suicide has planned financially for those he/she leaves behind, can it really be such a selfish act?
First of all, if the person who wishes to self-liberate is all that greatly loved by so many people, would he not be aware of it? Why would he/she want to leave this vale of tears if it is true that “love is all around”?
Besides, what do you expect the wife/hsband/partner/SO of a suicide to say publicly? “Good, I thought he would never go!!!”?
In my case, I have barely spoken to my brother in years. We are not in a quarrel, but I find him intolerable and spend as little time with him as I possibly can. Maybe an hour at Christmas or Easter, say. How much could my death affect him?
I have been with my present partner for 30 years. I have no doubt that he cares about me. I am not saying he would not be sad if I pushed the exit button, but I am now 58 and six years older than him. The chances are that he will have to face up to my mortality sometime. So he goes through a couple of months of sadness now instead of 20 years from now. So what?
Look at the upside. He is only 52. He has a lot more living ahead of him. He will inherit our SUV, our country home and our condo in the city. He will inherit about $250,000 in cash from various sources. And as my survivor he will get about $2000 per month from my pension fund. Not to mention that he has a job that brings him in about $60,000 a year.
Instead of being stuck with a sex partner who is pushing 60, he could meet some younger guy who would look up to this well-heeled, older man with adoration.
Objectively speaking, I do not believe my partner would dance on my grave. But by the same token, I doubt if the “horrible pain” of my self-liberation would be all that hard to take after a few months in which he has time to realistically asses the situation my action had put him in.
Of course he would deny this if I told him right now what I have just written here above. What do you expect the guy to do, haul out a calculator, crunch the numbers, and say “Can I get you a gun?” Of course not. He would have to make some sappy comment about how money would never make up for the loss of me.
Has anyone out there ever inherited from a parent who died? Did you want them dead? But were you sorry to get the money?
Look, Doc, get with it! Babies in Lebanon and Iraq and Afgahnistan are dying from “collateral damage”. Supporters of George W. Bush go straight from a rally supporting his “liberation” of Iraq to a “pro-life” rally.
Why do they not call themselves anti-abortion? Do they feel that abortion is an evil act? Would they like to see no abortions at all? Then obviously they are anti-abortion. Are they soooo afraid of a negative term in their name that they cannot call themselves what they are?
Then after the “pro-life” rally they write to the Governor to support the death penalty.
In the old days, groups called a spade a spade. Anti-slavery societies did not call themselves pro-freedom. The ASPCA did not call itself the “animal happiness” society.
But today, associations for the mentally retarded call themselves “The Association for Community Living.” It took me months to realize that they were not some kind of co-op housing development.
The crippled became the handicapped, the handicapped became the disabled, and now they are the “differently abled”. And it seems that the rest of us are now “the temporarily able-bodied”. Are the living going to become the temporarily undead?
I give “differently abled” about 5 years before someone decides it is offensive and starts guilt-tripping everyone who does not immediately switch to the new euphamism. Of course, there is nothing wrong with “crippled” or “handicapped” or “mentally retarded”. It is OUR inhuman attitude to the handicapped that tarnishes each new euphamism and makes it unusable in the space of a few years.
Killing oneself can indeed be an act of self-liberation. We stop having to put up with the six billion psychotic apes who share this planet with us.
It can be the ultimate act of humility. It is a recognition that I am not that important in the scheme of things.
Have you noticed that the same legislators who would condemn self-liberation on the grounds that every human life is sooooo precious would also vote huge sums for weapons whose purpose is to end human lives, and would support regimes like Saudi Arabia where humans are tortured and murdered routinely with the support of the West?
Have you noticed that organizations like the Catholic Church who have tortured, burned and slaughtered in war (the Pope used to have armies) heretics, witches and anyone in their way, and who today condemn women in the third world to die from lack of contraception, are among the greatest supporters of the “sacredness of life”?
What bothers the state and the churches is not my possible death. If it suits them, they are perfectly willing to see me die. It is MY decision on when I die, my empowerment in deciding this that they cannot tolerate. THAT is why I call it self-liberation.
Weell, by that same logic murder is really liberation. I’m freeing people from this sick world.
Again, more irrelevant words.
Whoo, look at all those irrelevant words. Buncha words that have nothing to do with what I said.
Finally, some relevance. However, you also make an unsupported assertion “It is MY decision on when I die . . . they cannot tolerate.”. You’re asserting that this is why suicide is illegal. Prove it.
Don’t forget the guilt. Oh, there’s *plenty *of that. My aunt killed herself nearly three years ago, and every person in my family feels that they were partly to blame for it, including me. It’s an open wound which will never completely heal.
Many suicides don’t have the luxury of planning financially for those left behind. I can state for a fact that for my family, no amount of money make up for the pain we felt.
My aunt knew she was loved. She knew that my grandmother (who had lost two children already) would be utterly devestated. In fact, the note she left apologised for that. She was just unhappy enough (or selfish enough, if you prefer) to think that her situation was worse than the guilt, grief, and agony her suicide would cause.
Besides, what do you expect the wife/hsband/partner/SO of a suicide to say publicly? “Good, I thought he would never go!!!”?
Perhaps more than you think. My mother hadn’t talked to my aunt for years before her suicide. They had a spat and neither of them stepped forward to extend the olive branch. My mother is filled with guilt and angusih over it, firstly for all the time that they lost together, and secondly because she feels that their unresolved issues contributed to her sister’s decision to commit suicide.
You don’t seem to understand that it’s not just “sadness.” It’s grief, and anger, and frustration and guilt and pain-- words fail me to describe it. Losing a relative to an accident or illness is terrible, but losing them to suicide is indescribably painful. The ones left behind never stop asking themselves why it happened and what they could have done to prevent it. There’s a sense of betrayal that the person who killed themselves hid their intentions and their mental/emotional turmoil from those who would have wanted to help them. The ones left behind often feel that they, in some way, must have failed the person who committed suicide-- they didn’t give enough support, or missed the signs.
It’s been three years since my aunt died. Her husband hasn’t “moved on” and I don’t imagine he will in the forseeable future. Her adult children have slid into depression and self-destructive behaviors. My aunt left behind nothing but debts and small social security payments, but I can state without a shadow of doubt that if she’d left behind millions, it wouldn’t make up one iota for the pain her survivors feel.
I don’t know your partner, but if he’s anything like my family, he’d probably not go out looking for a new partner, especially at his age. He’d proably spend the rest of his life alone, adrift in a sea of regret and sadness.
You’re extremely optomistic in imagining that he’d be over it in a “couple of months.” I know people who have lost their dogs and have grieved longer than that.
Sappy, maybe, but possibly very true. I don’t know him-- maybe he wouldn’t care, but I have a hard time believing that. I know several people who have lost loved ones to suicide, and I’ve never seen anyone take it in stride.
I have inherited money. I gave most of it away because I didn’t want it. What I wanted was the person I loved back, but of course, that wasn’t going to happen. I got no comfort from it.
Well, what do you expect me to say? That I have spoken to a number of successful suicides who have all assured me they did the right ting?
But I have a cousin who had testicular cancer and who was in horrible pain, and shot himself. Everyone agreed he had done the right thing.
While we are talking about selfish. Many of you remind me of a woman I once knew who had an old, old dog who was arthritic and blind and incontinent. But she refused to have him put down. She would carry him outside to poop, and back inside while the dog groaned in pain from his arthritis. This went on for years!
Why? Because this woman was too fucking SELFISH to have the dog put down and to live with the knowledge and sadness that he was dead and that she had caused his death. Better for the dog to suffer for years. How’s that for selfish?
You’re not arthritic or blind. Fifty eight isn’t that old.
Being unable to see beyond your depression, wanting to leave your partner alone because it’s easier for you to kill yourself than face your problems, how’s that for selfish?
DocCathode, how are you able to decide for me that I am suffering from depression that I cannot “see beyond”? Maybe I am just being realistic. Since you cannot get into my skin and my skull to know how I feel, how do you know I am suffering from the distorted vision caused by depression? Are you a qualified psychiatrist? And if so, are you in the habit of diagnosing anonmymous posters on message boards? Most unprofessional of you.
Thank you for answering my question, Valteron. You clearly convey your committment to your convictions on this matter. I won’t clutter up your thread with my own personal experiences with either suicide or psychotic apes.
But you really didn’t expect anyone to agree with you, did you?
Of course, the fact that reaction against an issue is stronger than willinginess to acceed could have created a “voodoo poll,” so please, if there are any lurkers who wish to agree with the OP, I ask them now to type in with a nod. You don’t have to craft an argument for fear of being dragged into a taffy-pull. Just a nod for Valteron.
Do you know for certain that you aren’t suffering from clinical depression? Or that you have incurable clinical depression.
I would certainly like to know that about myself before I could feel confident that I could make such a life or death decision correctly.
Would it ever be sane to kil yourself over the effects of a fully curable disease, rather than face the current temporary effects of the disease and the cure?
Your problems as described by you are neither incurable nor worth killing yourself over.
Ah, but I can get into your skull and know how you feel. It’s a gift.
No, I’m not a psychologist, or social worker either. I do when my gut screams at me and their condition is obvious. Yes, I’m acting in an unprofessional manner. I’ll have the relevant body censure me.
By the same token, how are you qualified to state how your loved ones will feel if you were to commit suicide?
I gave this some thought today because talking to you about my aunt brought up a lot of memories. I think that she, like you, figured that everyone around her would feel bad for a little while and then move on. She was wrong.
You seem to be casually dismissive of the idea that your death could have devestating effects on the people around you, even to the point of putting the words “horrible pain” in quotation marks as if those who express that feeling are merely posturing.
The choice is always yours, of course but it’s grossly unfair to dismiss the notion that those who love you will suffer for it. When you make a choice, you should consider all the repercussions of it.
Assuming that you know how others will feel about that decision and thus don’t need to be concerneed about it falls somewhere between dishonesty and laziness. “They’ll get over it” is a cheap excuse for any action, let alone something as serious as the end of a life.
Do you just not want to think about it? I suppose I would be tormented by the idea of my loved ones in pain and want to shove the idea aside in favor of some vague platitudes about their resilliency. Or, do you feel that you feel your pain in living is greater than theirs would be if you killed yourself? Or, does it just not matter all that much to you?
I am a lurker who agrees with most of what he has said. I believe that it’s perfectly reasonable and rational to conclude that being alive is worse than not existing. None of us chose to exist, and I think that anyone who decides they would rather not should be allowed to commit suicide. Without having to prove they are sane, or that their pain meets a certain threshold, or that their pain is incurable.
Valteron, I just wanted to let you know that you’re not alone in thinking this way. I find it very frustrating to have these beliefs and not be able to discuss them with anyone in real life for fear of horrifying others.
People are so afraid of saying anything that might encourage someone to commit suicide, to the point that there is effectively a taboo against expressing any positive ideas about it. But I think this taboo is detrimental rather than helpful to suicidal people and their families because it prevents an honest discussion of thoughts and feelings.