I’ve been trying to read up lately on Taiwanese history and the whole Taiwan-China question – since, well, I live here – and upon reading about the Republic of China (Taiwan) actually choosing to exit the U.N. instead of sharing representation of China with the PRC I started wondering if other states had ever actually withdrawn themselves from the UN.
I know there’s a lot of talk, especially in the States, about withdrawal, but has any other country ever done it?
Assuming that you don’t count nations that left the UN by virtue of ceasing to exist (Zanzibar, East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia), the only one I could find was Indonesia which left in 1965 but rejoined a year later.
Taiwan did not exit the UN. China was a UN member from the beginning, and after the Communists (PRC) expelled the Nationalists to Taiwan in 1949, the UN continued to recognize the Nationalist government (ROC) as the legitimate government of the whole of China. In 1971, the General Assembly, now dominated by Thirld World countries, withdrew recognition of the ROC in favour of the PRC as the legitimate government of China and therefore the legitimate holder of China’s seat in the UN. Attempts by Taiwan to gain admittance as a separate country have been repeatedly frustrated by PRC opposition. (Wikipedia article.)
Right. Taiwan is a bigger nation and has been an indepedent nation longer than many of the counties in the UN, so it is only politics that keeps it out.
I’m not saying wikipedia’s wrong, but the book I was reading was written by one of the more knowledgeable Taiwan scholars , a former prof at National Taiwan University, that I know of, though the book itself is a very thin primer on the history and politics of Taiwan. It says:
Sure, that may be a question of wording – does not accepting an ultimatum such as the UN’s decision to recognize the PRC constitute a choice to be kicked out of, to be withdrawn from, the UN?
Now there may be some fancy legalese in play but the essence is as follows: The Republic of China gave an ultimatium to the UN that either the ROC or PRC was the legitimate government of China. That if the PRC was admitted then the ROC would leave. And the ROC has rued that ultimatium pretty much ever since.
[QUOTE=gitfiddle]
I’ve been trying to read up lately on Taiwanese history and the whole Taiwan-China question – since, well, I live here – and upon reading about the Republic of China (Taiwan) actually choosing to exit the U.N. instead of sharing representation of China with the PRC I started wondering if other states had ever actually withdrawn themselves from the UN.
I know there’s a lot of talk, especially in the States, about withdrawal, but has any other country ever done it?
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The Soviet Union “withdrew” in the sense that it boycotted the United Nations Security Council and withdrew their UN Voting representative (Jacob Malik) in the Summer of 1950 over this very issue (Taiwan vs. the PRC).
When in June 1950, the United States brought the issue of the North Korean invasion of South Korea to the United Nations two separate UN Security Council resolutions were passed condemning the actions of the North Korean communists and supporting an active defense of the Republic of Korea (“South Korea”). Had the Soviets been present, it is unlikely that the resolutions would have passed. The United States would most probably have been forced to act unilaterally, if it acted at all.
Malik eventually returned in August and actually became the President of the SC - but the UN was at war and committed in Korea by that point.
[QUOTE=42fish]
Assuming that you don’t count nations that left the UN by virtue of ceasing to exist (Zanzibar, East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia), the only one I could find was Indonesia which left in 1965 but rejoined a year later.
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Slight nitpick: Indonesia left in 1965 (out of protest against Malaysia getting a seat in the Security Council) but never formally rejoined; it merely started participating in UN sessions and other work and stated that its withdrawal from the UN was not really a withdrawal but a mere suspension of membership. The UN and its other members did not contradict, and so Indonesia was treated as if it had never left.
[QUOTE=DrDeth]
Right. Taiwan is a bigger nation and has been an indepedent nation longer than many of the counties in the UN, so it is only politics that keeps it out.
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Actually, Taiwan is not a nation. It is either a rebellious province of China, or it is the proper government of China. Either way, it’s not entitled to sit in the UN as long as the PRC is there.
Now, one of these days, perhaps politics will allow the two governments to be separate countries… 
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq]
Actually, Taiwan is not a nation. It is either a rebellious province of China, or it is the proper government of China.
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Or perhaps it is the proper government of what remains of the ROC after the acceptedly-successful rebellion covering most of the territory? If the Confederacy had won the Civil War, would the remaining Union cease to have been a nation?
Better look into its history a little more. Taiwan was “a province of China” for only 4 years from 1895 to the present, and not at all before the 17th century when a mainland freebooter captured it - from the Dutch. it has its own indigenous population with their own languages, its own government and economy and military, and every other damn other thing a nation has. “Not a nation”? :dubious: When did you decide to let Beijing decide that unilaterally?
The only issue outstanding is the Beijing government’s refusal to date to accept that in public - but they do in private, as all the border-relaxation agreements and trade deals they’re making demonstrate. But perhaps the US wasn’t a nation until the Treaty of Ghent either?
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq]
Actually, Taiwan is not a nation. It is either a rebellious province of China, or it is the proper government of China. Either way, it’s not entitled to sit in the UN as long as the PRC is there.
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Why? Just becuase both claim to be the legal gov’t of the other? Big stinkin’ deal. In reality, Taiwan is a rather large, rich nation, with a fairly democratic gov’t, and has been independent longer than most of the nations voting to keep it out.
My understanding is that the Republic of China itself doesn’t claim to be “just” Taiwan. The ROC’s official position is that there is one China, with its capital in Taipei, and with a large portion of the country in rebellion against the legitimate government. The People’s Republic of China’s official position is that there is one China, with its capital in Beijing, and with a small portion of the country in rebellion against the legitimate government. So other countries and international bodies like the UN have to make a choice on who they believe - Taipei or Beijing -because there’s no middle ground of recognizing both. How can other countries recognize Taiwan as a country independent of China when Taiwan itself doesn’t do so? (And for what it’s worth, the PRC has long stated that any move by the ROC to declare Taiwan as a seperate and independanet country would be grounds for military force being used to invade Taiwan and forcibly reunite the country.)
[QUOTE=Little Nemo]
My understanding is that the Republic of China itself doesn’t claim to be “just” Taiwan. The ROC’s official position is that there is one China, with its capital in Taipei, and with a large portion of the country in rebellion against the legitimate government. The People’s Republic of China’s official position is that there is one China, with its capital in Beijing, and with a small portion of the country in rebellion against the legitimate government. So other countries and international bodies like the UN have to make a choice on who they believe - Taipei or Beijing -because there’s no middle ground of recognizing both. How can other countries recognize Taiwan as a country independent of China when Taiwan itself doesn’t do so? (And for what it’s worth, the PRC has long stated that any move by the ROC to declare Taiwan as a seperate and independanet country would be grounds for military force being used to invade Taiwan and forcibly reunite the country.)
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Well, this was kinda true in the past.
Legally speaking, Taiwan has de facto independance but not de jeure independance.
Currrently there’s a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy. Eg, Everyone in Taiwan has given up on the “Republic of China is the legitimate government of China and Mongolia” fiction except for a very few right wing loons. However, there is also the standing fiction that “China would reunify by force should Taiwan declare de jeure independance.” and the current president of Taiwan, Chen Shui-bian, is a hardcore independant advocate and even he has managed to never quite cross that political line after taking office.
My personal opinion is certainly within a decade if not half that time, economic integration will force a political real politik rapporchment (sp?) between Taiwan and China. Heck, anywhere between 5-10% of the entire population is in China at any given time working, doing deals, managing investments. I am personally waiting for the day after President Chen Shui-bian steps down and direct flights between Taiwan and the Mainland are inagurated.
[QUOTE=China Guy]
Well, this was kinda true in the past.
Legally speaking, Taiwan has de facto independance but not de jeure independance.
Currrently there’s a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy. Eg, Everyone in Taiwan has given up on the “Republic of China is the legitimate government of China and Mongolia” fiction except for a very few right wing loons. However, there is also the standing fiction that “China would reunify by force should Taiwan declare de jeure independance.” and the current president of Taiwan, Chen Shui-bian, is a hardcore independant advocate and even he has managed to never quite cross that political line after taking office.
My personal opinion is certainly within a decade if not half that time, economic integration will force a political real politik rapporchment (sp?) between Taiwan and China. Heck, anywhere between 5-10% of the entire population is in China at any given time working, doing deals, managing investments. I am personally waiting for the day after President Chen Shui-bian steps down and direct flights between Taiwan and the Mainland are inagurated.
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Which was the substance of my statment. Legally, there is a position advocated by both governments. Since both governments claim to be the one and only rulers of a unified China, neither government can accept a position in the UN with the other government recognized, for what would each be governing? If the Republic of China were to accept a seat in the UN, it would have to be accepting a seat as the government of something other than “China,” which it cannot do, yet, under its formal policy. In a world where you can have a country such as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, so named simply because the Greeks get all touchy about the meaning of “Macedonia,” it’s not too surprising to see that Taiwan is still unable to accept a seat in the UN.
Nor is the secession of states in 1861 apposite, as ElvisL1ves suggests, because in that case, the states of the South were not claiming to be the sole and proper government of the United States. And even if the situation were apposite, we could only consider it completely apposite if, say, the Civil War had left the Union in control of Rhode Island, and nothing else, and the Confederacy was indeed claiming to be the new United States of America.
China Guy puts his finger on the whole key right now. The Republic of China is damned if they do and damned if they don’t. By asserting that they are still the proper government of all China, they cannot be treated by the world as a true nation de jure. And if they attempt to accept political and military reality as legal reality, by declaring themselves some new nation that is not part of “China,” they face the possiblity of forced reunification by the PRC. While there may be sufficient doubt on the part of Beijing about what the US would do in that situation to provoke the consequences through military action, I, at least, have no doubt that Taiwan is not sufficiently important enough for the United States to engage in nuclear war over. Taiwan’s rulers undoubtedly consider the whole question kind of moot, since regardless of what the US would or would not do, Taiwan certainly would not come through such a military effort unscathed.
Therefore, they simply sit and wait and act in all ways like a country, except that they don’t have a seat at the UN, etc.
[QUOTE=China Guy]
My personal opinion is certainly within a decade if not half that time, economic integration will force a political real politik rapporchment (sp?) between Taiwan and China.
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There’s a lot of evidence of that happening already, with rapidly-increasing cross-strait investment (in both directions). There’s still regular bombastic speechifying from Beijing to mollify the old-line Communists who still have some power, and to save face - but even that seems likely to fade away as the revolutionary generation itself fades away.
As you note, Taiwan has already recognized the mainland’s “independence”, and the formal reciprocal recognition shows every sign of occurring as, in the words Beijing used in the Hong Kong takeover, “a matter left over from history”.
They’ve been in place for major holidays since last year already.
So called holiday “direct flights” have been in place for IIRC 5 years. Still have tons of restrictions as open to only Taiwanese passport holders, have to fly over a non PRC airspace (eg HK), and lasts for about 2 weeks. This is far short of direct flights.
Expect real direct flights to start up almost immediately after Chen Shuibian steps down.