Is That TB Guy The Biggest Asshole Ever, Or What?

[Rusalka]

@brazil84

If he believed that the risk to others was minimal, his belief was accurate and probably justified.

What does his personal belief about infectivity have to do with anything? The point was, he didn’t follow instructions he should have followed. This isn’t about personal freedom or whether his belief was correct or not correct.

If a bunch of doctors from the government call me in Italy and tell me not to fly because I might endanger others, I’m not going to decide I’m King Of The World and know better than everyone else and GO OUT OF MY WAY to deceive people into letting me fly when I’m not supposed to. So he’s in Italy, so what? Mr. Princess wanted to go there, that was his choice. I’m sure something could have been figured out, given a few days. If it were me, I’d have been on the phone 24 hours to everyone trying to get some answers instead of thinking “how am I going to cheat the system” and hopping the first plane to the Czech republic with my colluding wife.

I also don’t buy the “Waah! I was scared I was going to die” argument. Just because his TB was reclassified didn’t mean it suddenly became a more rapidly progressing disease.

What bothers me the most are the consistent posters here who rabidly defend his right to decide what the best policy is regarding infectious disease, or that the individual knows better than the CDC what to do, or that individual freedom and choice trumps any kind of policy designed to protect people. That is scary and very sad.

This whole incident just adds credence to the notion that young professional Americans are a bunch of entitled, selfish, prima donnas. So this guy went to Navy school, why didn’t he just follow orders and brave it out like his schooling must have taught him?

[Arnold_Winkelried]

@Capatalist Lion Tamer

The point that many of us are trying to make is that Speaker did not believe he was a risk to anyone.

Well, from what I read, I agree that he could have reasonably believed that when he initially travelled to Europe. However, when he was contacted in Italy and told “do not fly back to the USA”, he should have received confirmation from a specialist that he was still not contagious before coming back. We don’t know that he received such confirmation.

This is not a man without resources. The proper action for him to take would be to check himself into an Italian hospital, and then have his wife and father-in-law do whatever they can to ensure he gets appropriate treatment. You would think that his father-in-law, working for the CDC, would have valuable contacts and could help arrange something.

@brazil84

If he believed that the risk to others was minimal, his belief was accurate and probably justified.

Even if the risk to others is minimal, the fact is that he risked giving someone a deadly disease that Mr. Speaker believed can only be cured in a single location in the whole world. This is not some run-of-the-mill infection! Which is why I’m concluding that it was grievously negligent for him to act upon his own judgment and ignore the explicit directives given by doctors who specialize in that field. A small chance of making someone sick does not have the same health impact as a small chance of actually giving a person a disease that will kill them.

[Kokopilau]

@brazil84

To me, the most obvious explanation is that they either know or suspect that Speaker is telling the truth, and they are afraid of falling into what basically amounts to a perjury trap.

Let’s see . . . it’s ok to reveal that a patient was advised not to travel, but it’s not ok to reveal that he was advised he was or wasn’t contagious? Do you really believe that?

No, because it’s immaterial to what he did, since as we know there is no truly “non-contagious” state here. He’s either so contagious he can’t go out, or not so contagious that he can leave quarantine for limited supervised periods.

And yes, they are right to fear a trap laid by this guy. Not because they may have done something wrong, though…but because this guy is a personal-injury lawyer who had his personal-injury lawyer dad tape a conversation about this before he flew overseas while knowing he had TB.

If Fulton County is all suspicious-looking in your mind for not answering media questions about this, why isn’t Speaker equally suspicious-looking for refusing to release the tape to the media that would answer all these questions and eliminate the need for all this he-said-she-said crap? Hmm?

[brazil84]

@Rusalka

What does his personal belief about infectivity have to do with anything?

It has to do with the question of whether his conduct was moral or not. If he reasonably believed that he wasn’t a danger to others, then he’s not the asshole of the year. Especially if his belief was correct.

The point was, he didn’t follow instructions he should have followed. This isn’t about personal freedom or whether his belief was correct or not correct. If a bunch of doctors from the government call me in Italy and tell me not to fly because I might endanger others, I’m not going to decide I’m King Of The World and know better than everyone else and GO OUT OF MY WAY to deceive people into letting me fly when I’m not supposed to.

If 2 doctors called you while you were on vacation and told you it was necessary for the good of humanity for you to kill yourself immediately, would you do it? And if you didn’t do it, does that make you an asshole?

[brazil84]

@Arnold Winkelried

Even if the risk to others is minimal, the fact is that he risked giving someone a deadly disease that Mr. Speaker believed can only be cured in a single location in the whole world. This is not some run-of-the-mill infection!

If you pilot a plane in a populated area, there is a small risk that you will crash into an innocent person who is standing on the ground. This will result in near certain death for the innocent person.

By your reasoning, such a pilot is a major league asshole.

[Kokopilau]

@brazil84

It has to do with the question of whether his conduct was moral or not. If he reasonably believed that he wasn’t a danger to others, then he’s not the asshole of the year. Especially if his belief was correct.

So, his belief trumped the instructions of the CDC, the organization composed of doctors who specialize in the control of the transmission of dangerous infectious diseases?

If it’s that easy to circumvent, why do we have the CDC in the first place? Heck, why even have doctors, if a personal-injury lawyer knows better than they do anyway?

If 2 doctors called you while you were on vacation and told you it was necessary for the good of humanity for you to kill yourself immediately, would you do it? And if you didn’t do it, does that make you an asshole?

Considering that’s not even CLOSE to what this situation was like, perhaps you’d like to try your analogy again?

[Kokopilau]

@brazil84

If you pilot a plane in a populated area, there is a small risk that you will crash into an innocent person who is standing on the ground. This will result in near certain death for the innocent person.

By your reasoning, such a pilot is a major league asshole.

No he’s not, because the chance of crashing a plane and killing someone on the ground is far, far smaller than the chance of giving someone fatal TB when you are a carrier sitting next to them in a recycled-air environment for 6-12 hours.

[Velma]

@Tuckerfan

Frankly, I just cannot understand why “TB Toby” would even think about going anywhere once they told him he had TB. It’s a nasty, nasty disease, even in it’s most treatable form. Were I to get a diagnosis of it, or any other disease, where the doc’s said, “We’ve got to wait for the tests to come back before we can determine what kind of treatment we need to give you.” my first thought would not be, “Hey! I can still go on my Honeymoon!” It would be, “I need to stick close, and be available to them so that the moment the test results come back, they can start treating me.” I’m wondering if the dude doesn’t have a phobia of doctors, and that’s why he didn’t think about staying close to home.

Well, if I were told I had a non-contagous form and that it was currently dormant, I could see going ahead with my wedding. I mean, it’s not like a little vacation or something, this was the guy’s wedding day. It’s a PITA to reschedule an out of the country wedding. He was non symptomatic, and was probably aware that whenever he did begin treatment it would be a long haul, so he probably just wanted to get married and have his last trip before starting all that. He may have figured, he has had TB already for months now and nothing has happened, so what’s a few more days? Especially if you happen to have a father in law who is an expert on the disease, and he isn’t exactly panicking about going ahead with everything.

Hey, I had to postpone a trip at the last minute once because of emergency surgery I needed, and it was a mess. That was just for a regular vacation, I can’t imagine trying to re-schedule a wedding when the guests were coming from other countries.

I am not excusing this guy. I am just saying that under certian (unproven, so far) circumstances, I can see why he went in the first place. I cannot, however, justify him flying back from Italy when the CDC told him they wanted him on a no-fly list. I can understand that he was upset about being left there, but I would pitch a fit for a bit longer to come up with a safe way of getting home before just jetting off on my own, at least. For me, the first part of his trip, while maybe stupid, is understandable. The second part, not so much.

[brazil84]

@Kokopilau

No, because it’s immaterial to what he did, since as we know there is no truly “non-contagious” state here. He’s either so contagious he can’t go out, or not so contagious that he can leave quarantine for limited supervised periods.

Ok, so if you admit that Fulton County is lying on that point, how does it affect their credibility in general?

And yes, they are right to fear a trap laid by this guy. Not because they may have done something wrong, though…but because this guy is a personal-injury lawyer who had his personal-injury lawyer dad tape a conversation about this before he flew overseas while knowing he had TB.

What special power does a lawyer have in this situation? If Fulton County tells the truth, they have nothing to fear.

If Fulton County is all suspicious-looking in your mind for not answering media questions about this, why isn’t Speaker equally suspicious-looking for refusing to release the tape to the media that would answer all these questions and eliminate the need for all this he-said-she-said crap? Hmm?

If Speaker refused to answer media questions, then he would be a lot more suspicious in my mind. Apparently he does plan to release the tape.

[descamisado]

Thanks for the synopsis of the timeline.

@Velma

I will be interested in hearing that tape if it ever comes out.

1. He keeps saying there’s a tape and no one knows what’s on it yet. You can almost be sure there’ll be 18½ minutes missing.

2. The medical authorities, in addition to not putting their collective feet down from the beginning and admitting such (last night), are playing things close to the vest, possibly to limit any potential liability in a situation Speaker set in motion. This includes anything that became necessary to talk about publicly only because Speaker potentially exposed people by flying when he was advised not to.

BTW, my brother works for the CDC in Atlanta; he’s not a researcher or involved in this case, but he has insight into how they work.

[brazil84]

@Kokopilau

No he’s not, because the chance of crashing a plane and killing someone on the ground is far, far smaller than the chance of giving someone fatal TB when you are a carrier sitting next to them in a recycled-air environment for 6-12 hours.

Ok, what are the two probabilities? And what probability marks the line between major league asshole and reasonable person?

[brazil84]

@Kokopilau

So, his belief trumped the instructions of the CDC, the organization composed of doctors who specialize in the control of the transmission of dangerous infectious diseases?

In terms of assessing his moral culpability, sure.

Considering that’s not even CLOSE to what this situation was like, perhaps you’d like to try your analogy again?

Somebody seemed to be arguing that there is a moral obligation to obey the instructions of doctors, even if their instructions are detrimental to you, and even if you know better.

So how about you try to explain why my analogy is inappropriate?

[Kokopilau]

@brazil84

In terms of assessing his moral culpability, sure.

So, the fact that this guy ended up being right for all the wrong reasons doesn’t matter? The ends justify the means?

Speaker didn’t end up spreading this disease to others because he knew more about the infectivity rate and pathology of tuberculosis. He ended up not spreading the disease to others because he was fortunate to have a slightly-contagious form of the disease (note, not a NON-contagious), instead of a highly-contagious form. Which HE DIDN’T KNOW.

As far as Speaker knew, he was infecting everyone he met with the disease (remember, the CDC had just told him to go into quarantine in Italy).

He had picked up a pistol and was firing it wildly into a crowd of random bystanders, fortunate in the fact that the pistol was loaded with blanks. But he didn’t know it was loaded with blanks at the time he squeezed the trigger.

THAT is what makes him morally culpable.

Somebody seemed to be arguing that there is a moral obligation to obey the instructions of doctors, even if their instructions are detrimental to you, and even if you know better.

He didn’t know better.

So how about you try to explain why my analogy is inappropriate?

Because he wasn’t going to die if he followed CDC instructions instead of fleeing Italy and trying to enter the US illegimately.

Ok, what are the two probabilities? And what probability marks the line between major league asshole and reasonable person?

The line between the number of people worldwide who die from TB and the number of people worldwide who die when a plane crashes on top of them. Do you really need the comparative numbers on this?

Ok, so if you admit that Fulton County is lying on that point, how does it affect their credibility in general?

No, I never admitted they were lying, because they aren’t lying. Saying “We aren’t gonna talk about it” doesn’t mean “All right, you got us”.

If Speaker refused to answer media questions, then he would be a lot more suspicious in my mind. Apparently he does plan to release the tape.

“Plans to.” He keeps talking about it. Why, do you think, he hasn’t released it yet? Hmm?

[brazil84]

@Kokopilau

So, the fact that this guy ended up being right for all the wrong reasons doesn’t matter?

In terms of assessing his moral culpability, that would be correct. (Assuming that he was right for the wrong reasons. Actually it seems that he was right for the right reasons.)

The ends justify the means?

Depends on what ends and what means.

Speaker didn’t end up spreading this disease to others because he knew more about the infectivity rate and pathology of tuberculosis. He ended up not spreading the disease to others because he was fortunate to have a slightly-contagious form of the disease (note, not a NON-contagious), instead of a highly-contagious form. Which HE DIDN’T KNOW.

He was told that he wasn’t contagious and reasonably believed the same. Thus, his belief was both correct and justified.

As far as Speaker knew, he was infecting everyone he met with the disease (remember, the CDC had just told him to go into quarantine in Italy).

Are you saying that they told him they discovered he was contagious? Cite please.

Because he wasn’t going to die if he followed CDC instructions instead of fleeing Italy and trying to enter the US illegimately.

But he did believe (apparently) that he would have a greatly increased risk of dying.

So I’ll change the hypothetical a little: You are on vacation. A couple doctors call and tell you that you must play a couple rounds of Russian Roullette for the good of humanity. If you refuse, are you an asshole?

The line between the number of people worldwide who die from TB and the number of people worldwide who die when a plane crashes on top of them. Do you really need the comparative numbers on this?

Are you seriously claiming that the probability that this guy would give TB to another passenger is proportional to the number of worldwide deaths from TB every year?

Let me ask you this, oh master of statistics: How many people do you suppose catch TB every year from sitting on the same plane as a TB patient who is negative for the TB bacteria in his spit? How many people die every year from getting hit by planes?

No, I never admitted they were lying, because they aren’t lying. Saying “We aren’t gonna talk about it” doesn’t mean “All right, you got us”.

Then I misunderstood your answer to my question. I’ll repeat my question:

Let’s see . . . it’s ok to reveal that a patient was advised not to travel, but it’s not ok to reveal that he was advised he was or wasn’t contagious? Do you really believe that?

“Plans to.” He keeps talking about it. Why, do you think, he hasn’t released it yet? Hmm?

If I had to guess, I would say that he’s hoping to catch Fulton County in a lie. But anyway, do you admit that he isn’t refusing to answer questions like Fulton County is doing?

[Arnold_Winkelried]

@brazil84

If you pilot a plane in a populated area, there is a small risk that you will crash into an innocent person who is standing on the ground. This will result in near certain death for the innocent person.

Then you weigh the benefits to society that are being offered by flying this plane in a populated area, vs. the risks incurred by the people over which I am flying the plane. Which is why we have laws governing such actions.

Mr. Speaker is not a specialist in tuberculosis. He should have deferred to the opinion of specialists. I still haven’t heard any evidence that, once he learned of his most current diagnosis, a medical professional (preferrably one familiar with the XDR-TB strain) told him it would be safe for him to fly.

To take your pilot example: if brazil84, some guy I don’t know on the internet, tells me it’s safe or unsafe, I’m not going to take it too seriously. But if specialist X, who knows the risks of my plane, tells me “don’t fly over populated areas” then I’ll listen to him and weigh my options. Should I fly over unpopulated areas? Should I stop flying altogether? How important is it to me personally and to others to fly over this populated area?

In Mr. Speaker’s case, he had other options besides trying to evade the do-not-fly rule imposed on him by the CDC. Like I mentioned before, a reasonable option would have been to check himself into a hospital in Italy, and have his father-in-law and wife do whatever is possible to get him the right care.

[Velma]

Before Speaker left the first time, he was advised not to fly. Was he advised this because:

• it was risky for his own health and treatment options, or
• it was risky for other passengers.

The first one makes him reckless and/or stupid maybe, the second one makes him an ass, IMO. I guess we won’t know unless we hear the tape though.

[Bridget_Burke]

@Tuckerfan

Frankly, I just cannot understand why “TB Toby” would even think about going anywhere once they told him he had TB. It’s a nasty, nasty disease, even in it’s most treatable form. Were I to get a diagnosis of it, or any other disease, where the doc’s said, “We’ve got to wait for the tests to come back before we can determine what kind of treatment we need to give you.” my first thought would not be, “Hey! I can still go on my Honeymoon!” It would be, “I need to stick close, and be available to them so that the moment the test results come back, they can start treating me.” I’m wondering if the dude doesn’t have a phobia of doctors, and that’s why he didn’t think about staying close to home.

I agree. He has fucking tuberculosis!

He knew that pending test results would reveal the type of TB he had. And that it was possible he had XDR-TB. Which he’d learned could only be treated in Denver. (Or so he thought.)

Speaker is considered a low risk for infecting others. “Low risk” is not the same as “no risk.” Especially when dealing with such a nasty disease.

He should have postponed the wedding–or the honeymoon.

[Kokopilau]

@brazil84

Depends on what ends and what means.

The ends of arriving at home without infecting anyone else. The means is flying home after being told not to by the organization responsible for the control of the spread of infectious diseases.

He was told that he wasn’t contagious and reasonably believed the same. Thus, his belief was both correct and justified.

Are you saying that they told him they discovered he was contagious? Cite please.

I’ve asked this in the thread before: do you think the CDC ordered him into quarantined and told him not to fly home on a commercial airline just for kicks?

And no, his belief wasn’t correct and justified for this very reason. Even assuming that he was told it was fine to fly TO Europe, the fact that once he was IN Europe and was told “turn yourself in for isolation from the rest of humanity, and whatever else you do, don’t get on a commercial flight!” implies that a) his medical situation and changed, and b) the CDC was worried about the possibility of his infecting others.

So, at the time he got on the flight home, he knew, KNEW that the CDC believed he was at risk for transmitting the disease. And yet he went anyway.

But he did believe (apparently) that he would have a greatly increased risk of dying.

Uh uh. Either he thought he was perfectly okay, and thus could fly home with no problems despite the CDC explictly telling him NOT to, or he was worried he had such an advanced state of the disease that he was gonna die.

He can’t have believed both.

So I’ll change the hypothetical a little: You are on vacation. A couple doctors call and tell you that you must play a couple rounds of Russian Roullette for the good of humanity. If you refuse, are you an asshole?

Again, that’s not what happened. How about I make the analogy for you, then.

You’re told that you may or may not suddenly explode. Doctors say, “Don’t go out in public, because if you explode, innocent people will die with you.” You go out in public anyway.

What does that make you?

Are you seriously claiming that the probability that this guy would give TB to another passenger is proportional to the number of worldwide deaths from TB every year?

Let me ask you this, oh master of statistics: How many people do you suppose catch TB every year from sitting on the same plane as a TB patient who is negative for the TB bacteria in his spit? How many people die every year from getting hit by planes?

No, I’m saying that people who have TB and are ordered into quarantine spread the disease more often than planes crash and kill people on the ground. Do you dispute this?

Then I misunderstood your answer to my question. I’ll repeat my question:

Let’s see . . . it’s ok to reveal that a patient was advised not to travel, but it’s not ok to reveal that he was advised he was or wasn’t contagious? Do you really believe that?

One is telling the media what other sources have already told them. The other is not.

If I had to guess, I would say that he’s hoping to catch Fulton County in a lie. But anyway, do you admit that he isn’t refusing to answer questions like Fulton County is doing?

He’s refusing to release information, the same way Fulton County is doing. It’s either fine for both parties to do, or bad for both parties to do. It can’t be fine for one and bad for the other.

[Tuckerfan]

@Velma

Well, if I were told I had a non-contagous form and that it was currently dormant, I could see going ahead with my wedding. I mean, it’s not like a little vacation or something, this was the guy’s wedding day. It’s a PITA to reschedule an out of the country wedding. He was non symptomatic, and was probably aware that whenever he did begin treatment it would be a long haul, so he probably just wanted to get married and have his last trip before starting all that. He may have figured, he has had TB already for months now and nothing has happened, so what’s a few more days? Especially if you happen to have a father in law who is an expert on the disease, and he isn’t exactly panicking about going ahead with everything.

A PITA beats being dead. If there was some doubt about him having TB, I could understand, but he knew he had TB. Yeah, so his FIL wasn’t all that worried, but then do we know if FIL had all the facts? I’ve heard tons from dipshit’s dad, but nothing from the FIL, basically.

[Capatalist_Lion_Tamer]

@Tuckerfan

Frankly, I just cannot understand why “TB Toby” would even think about going anywhere once they told him he had TB. It’s a nasty, nasty disease, even in it’s most treatable form. Were I to get a diagnosis of it, or any other disease, where the doc’s said, “We’ve got to wait for the tests to come back before we can determine what kind of treatment we need to give you.” my first thought would not be, “Hey! I can still go on my Honeymoon!” It would be, “I need to stick close, and be available to them so that the moment the test results come back, they can start treating me.” I’m wondering if the dude doesn’t have a phobia of doctors, and that’s why he didn’t think about staying close to home.

I’m not sure why you think it was his first thought, since he’s had the disease for five months.