Is the 2nd Amendment an anachronism?

Well, since no one else has commented about it:

[QUOTE=Lumpy]
my 2¢
I’ve been trying to compose a good response to this thread; the problem is that a whole book could be written on the subject, and the replies are piling up faster than I can read them. So here’s what I’ve got for what it’s worth:

The Second Amendment, like the other nine amendments collectively known as the “Bill of Rights” came about because of concerns over the expansion of federal power when the current Constitution replaced the Articles of Confederation. The new Constitution consolidated war-making power to the new federal government and forbade the states from having their own independent militaries (Article One Section Ten Clause Three). All the states were permitted to keep were “militias”- armed citizens who could be summoned to defend against attack or to enforce the rule of law, and who would NOT be full-time professional soldiers. The new constitution also gave the federal government joint authority with the states over the militia, and that was a sticking point on getting the new constitution ratified: couldn’t a despotic federal government potentially disarm or disband the militias? So although the rest of the new constitution was largely about empowering the federal government, the first ten amendments (modeled after the original English Bill of Rights) were intended to expressly limit the federal power by declaring what actions by the federal government would be considered despotic overreaching. Since obviously the states needed some way of enforcing security and order (before the invention of professional police forces), the Second Amendment states the justification for the provision (“necessary to the security of a free state”) and then what the federal government was forbidden to do (“the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed”).

Now you could take the position that the Bill of Rights is strictly a matter of jurisdictional bookkeeping, but it has traditionally been taken to be more than that; that the provisions of the Bill of Rights are broader statements of general principles, of what features are or are not inherently part of being a democracy of free people. As the Master himself pointed out (What does “the right to bear arms” really mean? - The Straight Dope) the other provisions of the Bill of Rights- freedom of speech and the press, freedom of assembly and petition, freedom of worship, freedom from summary imprisonment or seizure of property, freedom from the unjust exercise of law- have long been held to be broad principles, binding on any government claiming to be a democracy. Yet for the longest time the Second was the odd man out, to the point that one scholar on the subject entitled his work “The Embarrassing Second Amendment”. Ironically it wasn’t a tyrannical federal government that passed most gun restrictions but the states themselves, progressively banning the possession of guns by negroes, poor people, immigrants, leftist radicals, striking workers, and eventually almost any person in public. While other provisions of the Bill of Rights gradually gained protection against state encroachment, it wasn’t until the US Supreme Court’s Heller decision that the Second gained similar protection. Does this mean that the people couldn’t choose via their elected representatives to ban guns? Certainly they could, but such a move would have to be the will of an abiding supermajority, a constitutional-level change in other words.

The Second Amendment wasn’t intended to give the people the power to revolt against the government so much as the government wasn’t supposed to have the power to impose measures without the support- ultimately, the armed support- of the people. It isn’t that the public has been disarmed so much as the government has been granted enormous military and police power, far beyond anything originally intended. History has not been encouraging on the subject of what happens when weapons are reserved to the government and the populace at large is forbidden to possess them. It’s sort of the principle of the thing; to quote one pro-gun slogan, “Owning firearms is an affirmation that freedom and liberty are not gifts of the state”. A government that would ban guns is perilously close to one that would say “Shut up and do what you’re told, you goddamn peasant”.
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Excellent post. I was trying, badly, to say the same thing earlier. As to The Master’s article, the only thing about it I never liked is the drawing…it always seemed a pointless slam that didn’t really have much to do with the actual written article. Other than that, Unca Cecil’s take is pretty much in line with my own.

Anyway, good post, FWIW.

-XT

Then you might die. If you want to gamble with your life or someone you love who is with you over that presumed 1% then go ahead. Some of us won’t take that gamble.

Your example was first about how a potential robbery and murder victim would have a better chance if a robber decided to kill them. It has now changed to “shoot every robber just in case they decide at some point to shoot you.”

It is certainly your right to have that opinion. But it is WAY different from where you started.

You’ve got it completely wrong. I wasn’t talking about potential robbery and murder victims. I was talking about victims who were actually killed. And how being armed may have saved some of them.

And shooting their assailants first before they could be shot themselves is how it works. I just never got into that detail.

As they say, it ain’t the odds…it’s the stakes. That, and I am not inclined to trust my life to the good nature of somebody who has already demonstrated he has no problem with getting what he wants through (the threat of) violence.

I’ve used those very words almost verbatim, Scumpup.

But IMO you can’t base plans and policy on thinking like that. From the way you described the OP. most of these victims wan’t have any advance warning that a robber (or killer) is planning in advance to shoot them.

So, using the only practical defense possible (which you and I both agreed to), drawing and firing at the first demand for cash, is going to make many of these victims killers (of the robber or the poor schlub down the street), who didn’t need to be killers. And assuming they survive to consider it, they will never know whether or not, had they just given up their wallet, they would have been killed.

Now presumably they might have killed a few stone killers along the way, but they would have shot a whole lot more kids who would’ve just run away to get their fix or whatever.

Very, very well put. Excellent post.

You say that like we are talking about gunning down altar boys for filching a sip of the sacramental wine. In point of fact, we are talking about someone who has threatened another person with violence, or even death, for the contents of his wallet. Maybe he’ll take the money and run. Maybe he’ll injure or kill you because he saw too many TV shows and believes he needs to eliminate witnesses. Maybe he’ll do it just because. I don’t believe I owe this person the benefit of the doubt or a fair fight.

Plans and policy, huh?
The point is, it’s better to be a killer than to be dead. You still refuse to understand that I am talking about a better outcome than being dead for victims who actually are dead. Some chance for them to survive might have changed the outcome of their dying.

Any robber, whomever it may be, is threatening bodily harm. That is all that is required for the survival instinct to kick in. You don’t mull over whether this might just be a nice guy who’s luck is down or maybe they don’t have a real gun or knife et al. You just must survive. You just must act.

No, most robbers are threatening financial harm. The logical endpoint of your line of argument is shooting random kids you see with a bag of Skittles because hey, they might be a threat to you.

Incredible.

“Give me your money or I will cause you financial harm” :smiley:

Not random kids with Skittles. Someone in your face who may bring hell down on you.

No, it isn’t and you should hang your head in shame at having posted this. Was winning the thread that important to you?

Although the Article V clause prohibiting certain amendments does not explicitly protect itself from amendment, I would expect the Supreme Court to invalidate any amendment that tried to do so. Otherwise, the prohibition would be ineffective.

So, bringing in what actually happens in the real world is somehow irrelevant now?

So, what happened in the real world, Chronos? The real world of Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman. Do you know?

Under what grounds?

Can you name any amendment that was overturned by SCOTUS?

An amendment that invalidated that part Article V would be just as valid as the The Eleventh, Fourteenth, Sixteenth and Twenty-sixth Amendments.

SCOTUS makes decisions based on the current law and constitution, as amended that prohibition would not be. They have noted in the past that the amendment process political and outside the purview of the Court.

The only question is if the Union would support it’s passing.

Maybe you should contact the authorities.