Is the 2nd Amendment an anachronism?

The Supreme Court does not agree with you. The principles upon which the Constitution rests can not be altered by powers granted to fulfill those principles.

You fail to recognize and understand that the general militia concept, the political philosophy that the mass of private citizens having their personal arms in their hands, without regulation of law or permission of authorities, standing as a barrier to domestic tyrants and foreign invaders, IS AN INSEPARABLE COMPONENT OF OUR FORM OF GOVERNMENT.

We can enter into a philosophical conversation on Locke and Sidney vs Bodin and Filmer or even going back further, Plato vs Aristotle regarding the political debate of whether a government should trust the general population with arms . . . But as far as the sentiments of the founders / framers are concerned and the principles upon which the Constitution is founded upon, the issue is settled and can’t be changed. See *Marbury v Madison * for an explanation of the constitutional operation regarding the primacy of principle . . .

You probably need to believe that to support your politics but it doesn’t have any relationship to the actual restrictions placed on actions like this by the basic nature of the COTUS.

That you don’t understand political philosophy, world history or US Conlaw doesn’t make it drivel.

Your claim appears to be that the Constitution can’t be amended to withdraw the right (assuming one actually exists under the constitution) of individuals to keep and bear arms. That’s drivel.

Ah, the old “Waaaah! You don’t agree with me! You must not know what you’re talking about!” defense. Takes me back to 3rd grade recess.

So are you actually going to provide an argument for your side or just continue to belittle posters.

I was just standing my ground.

Everybody cool it, please. Comments like “that’s drivel” and “you don’t understand” don’t advance the debate.

There is nothing to withdraw . . . The people never conferred a sliver of power to impact the personal arms of the private citizen. It isn’t the words of the 2nd Amendment that “create” or 'grant" or “give” or “establish” the right to keep and bear arms, it is the absolute silence of the Constitution enumerating a power by which the personal arms of the private citizen could be impacted . . .

For you to argue that repealing the 2nd Amendment would “withdraw” the right you would first need to demonstrate an existing legitimate authority by which the right was first given to the people. The government can not take back something it never possessed.

It has nothing to do with you “agreeing with me”.

Debate presumes that the parties do not agree doesn’t it?

I have made mature philosophical, historical and legal arguments.

You appear incapable of rebutting them in kind.

Equating those two statements in the context they were written is not legitimate.

IMNSHO, telling someone that they don’t understand the concepts being discussed is not a personal attack nor does it detract from the debate.

I am fully capable of defending my arguments in the philosophical, historical and legal spectrums if actual challenges are made . . .

"That’s drivel"is not a mature, reasoned rebuttal to anything I have written.

Your argument that the “right” to own a gun is just so utterly important that it can never be taken away, save by the complete rewriting of the Constitution, is not a mature philosophical, historical, or legal argument. There is no point in arguing against such a viewpoint.

I didn’t say it was a personal attack. I am saying that this thread is descending into sniping and it needs to stop. (That also goes for saying an opinion is “not mature,” BobLibDem.)

So the question seems to be, can a provision of the Bill of Rights be rescinded by amendment or otherwise nullified by legislative act, and a power that was expressly prohibited beforehand be conveyed to government to exercise at will?

Well, let’s set aside the 2nd Amendment for a moment and ask what if the government nullified the 4th, 5th, 6th, and the 8th provisions in the Bill of Rights?

Would the government then be legitimately empowered, to search and arrest a citizen without warrant, torture a confession out of him, convict him in a kangaroo court without benefit of counsel, then take him immediately outside and have him hung, drawn and quartered?

I say no. The fundamental maxims of equal rights and equal standing and the exercise of legitimate authority and the abhorrence to arbitrary government action are fundamental tenets of the Constitution and even if the mechanism afforded by the Constitution for altering it were used to the letter, such action would be illegitimate and “unconstitutional”.

Any amendment must be in agreement with the founding principles. Marbury v. Madison confirmed the supremacy of the Constitution and the principles it is based on, over the legislature, the judiciary and all levels and departments of the executive branch.

[ul]
[li]“The powers of the legislature are defined and limited; and that those limits may not be mistaken or forgotten, the constitution is written. To what purpose are powers limited, and to what purpose is that limitation committed to writing; if these limits may, at any time, be passed by those intended to be restrained?”[/li][/ul]

This is the fundamental principle of our Republican form of government. The powers of the government extend to only that which is included in the Constitution. That restriction of power is meant to be definite and final, not vague and malleable.

The Constitution itself can not be changed by normal legislative processes and neither is it subject to public opinion (as in a democracy).

If a law is passed, it must be in agreement with the Constitution. The court then asks about the ramifications of enforcing a law, that is in their words, “repugnant to the constitution.”

[ul]
[li]“If an act of the legislature, repugnant to the constitution, is void, does it, notwithstanding its invalidity, bind the courts and oblige them to give it effect? Or, in other words, though it be not law, does it constitute a rule as operative as if it was a law? This would be to overthrow in fact what was established in theory; and would seem, at first view, an absurdity too gross to be insisted on.”[/li][/ul]

So, that law does not exist. Requiring another branch of government to act upon that non-law is, “an absurdity too gross to be insisted on.” The court then tells us how to determine whether a law is repugnant to the constitution.

[ul]
[li]“It seems only necessary to recognize certain principles, supposed to have been long and well established, to decide it. . . The principles, therefore, so established are deemed fundamental. And as the authority, from which they proceed, is supreme, and can seldom act, they are designed to be permanent.”[/li][/ul]

That short paragraph speaks volumes about the shared responsibility of vigilance held by each branch of the government and the citizenry. All of them should be able to recognize and none of them can allow, governmental overstepping of authority.

In simpler terms it states; Those long and well established principles are fundamental. They act as the bedrock, the foundation from which all legitimate governmental power is built. But while the Constitution is supreme, the governmental power granted through it, “can seldom act,” (is strictly limited and has no power to retroactively change those principles) so, those principles are permanent.

I do not take the court’s language to mean that those principles, on which our Constitution rests, are flexible or evolving, or subject to modern reconstruction or worse of all, the ignorant whims of popular opinion.

OK, well I hope I raised the level of discourse with my last post.

And I say that any amendments become as much a part of the Constitution as the original document, and by definition, cannot be unconstitutional. We’ll have to agree to disagree.

It isn’t just the right to own a gun.

It is the entire rights concept that the founders / framers embraced and endeavored to preserve.

But it is the philosophically, historically and legally correct argument.

Present a oppositional argument grounded in those doctrines and I would be impressed.

How about this: the Constitution cannot by definition be unconstitutional.

Just a drive by here.

[QUOTE=BobLibDem]
And I say that any amendments become as much a part of the Constitution as the original document, and by definition, cannot be unconstitutional. We’ll have to agree to disagree.
[/QUOTE]

I pretty much disagree with Bob on most thing, but I have to say that, assuming I understand the point of contention here properly, he’s right in this instance. Assuming the Amendment was repealed and a new Amendment was put in it’s place, that new Amendment would be Constitutional and have the force of law behind it. So, if we posit that the 2nd was struck down and a new Amendment put in it’s place categorically stating that private citizens will not be allowed to keep or bear arms under any circumstances, then this new Amendment would be Constitutional and could be acted upon at the Federal level in the same ways the other Amendments are today.

Seems clear that this is what happened with the 18th.

-XT

It is my position that any amendments that run counter to the fundamental principles of the original document’s establishment would be “unconstitutional”.

Can you support your position framed in the excerpts I provided from Marbury above?

Or at least answer my above question with some explanation:

[INDENT]Well, let’s set aside the 2nd Amendment for a moment and ask what if the government nullified the 4th, 5th, 6th, and the 8th provisions in the Bill of Rights?

Would the government then be legitimately empowered, to search and arrest a citizen without warrant, torture a confession out of him, convict him in a kangaroo court without benefit of counsel, then take him immediately outside and have him hung, drawn and quartered?[/INDENT]

Same goes here . . .

It is my position that any amendments that run counter to the fundamental principles of the original document’s establishment would be “unconstitutional”.

Can you support your position framed in the excerpts I provided from *Marbury *above?

Or at least answer my above question with some explanation:

    [INDENT]Well, let's set aside the 2nd Amendment for a moment and ask what if the government nullified the 4th, 5th, 6th, and the 8th provisions in the Bill of Rights?

    Would the government then be legitimately empowered, to search and arrest a citizen without warrant, torture a confession out of him, convict him in a kangaroo court without benefit of counsel, then take him immediately outside and have him hung, drawn and quartered?[/INDENT]