Is the American Experiment Over?

Great Debates
1

I am so dis-heartened by recent events. It looks like we may not be able to reach a national consensus on health care. It is arguably one of the biggest problems we face: costs are growing faster than other segments of the economy, it is a barrier to American competitiveness in manufacturing, we have large numbers of unisured, and we pay more money for worse results than other countries.

There are many arguments about how to make things better, private vs public, mandatory vs optional, state vs federal, fix the “gaps” or look at the whole thing, … But we have become bogged down in complete lies from the opposition. There is no coherent debate at all.

Meanwhile we have the birthers who question the very legitimacy of the President with no facts to back them up. Other issues such as abortion, gun rights, and prayer in school continue to divide the country. There is a great deal of rancor between red and blue states and urban vs rural residents.

If a Conservative president is elected in 2012 or 2016 then I am sure the left will respond with equal vigor. If there os repeat of the 2000 debacle there will be riots in the streets rather than the calm acceptance of the court’s ruling by Gore. I am not sure how much longer the US can hold together. One more liberal ruling by the SC and I think conservative states will just defy it and provoke a constitutional crisis. I know I’m ready to cecede myself just to get away from the red state nuts. I’m also sick of spending more than a fair share of the federal budget in red states, while they thumb their noses and bray about govt. spending. We came awful close to having to respect other states gun laws while they refuse to recognize gay marriages from other states.

I had great hope for Obama, and I think he has done an excellent job of trying to build a bi-partisan consensus, but there is no reciprocation. I no longer see a politcal system that is trying to accomplish public good, just one that is trying to “win” at all costs.

I think that the internet and cable news has removed the ability for the entire country to sit down and watch the same news broadcasts like we did in the 60s. Now all people watch (on both sides) are shows that reflect their own biases.

Anyone want to talk me down?

2

Well, I’m “from the other side of the camp”, probably, but I agree with your observations. I think we as a nation have gotten stuck in a bipartisan rut. I think what we need is real debate without lobbying, but what we get instead is shouts and flames.

3

I doubt it. The American left is more civilized, less lunatic and much more spineless than the Right. Short of the government rounding up liberals into camps you wouldn’t see the reaction from the American left you are seeing right now from the right. Another 2000 style election theft would just result in a few quickly forgotten protests.

The problem from the Left isn’t too much passion; it’s too little. The Right uses tactics like shouting down the other side because it works when the other side won’t stand up to you. That was Obama’s biggest mistake; he doesn’t seem to realize that the Republicans are not his rivals and they are not the “loyal opposition”. They are his enemies, not rivals; and they have no loyalty to the nation’s collective interest. They will cheerfully drag the country down to disaster to indulge their spite and bigotry. He keeps trying to make deals and compromises with people who have no desire to do anything but make him fail; and probably to see him dead if they can.

4

I’m with you Dan.

I’m a very middle-of-the-road-economically, left of center socially sort of guy (if that matters for a data point).

I find it basically impossible to have a reasoned discussion with a person who believes differently than I do politically (and I’m a very very reasoned and mellow guy, my post is my cite :wink: ). It’s almost as impossible to have a reasoned discussion with a person who believes similarly to me! Reason has flown out the window for many, and absolutism with hints of fanaticism are de rigour (sp?) for everyone. Granted, this is because, as you say, it’s all about winning, and showing any sign of weakness is tantamount to throwing in the towel in the eyes of many.

I’m 29, and while I was moderately politically aware through my teens, most of my real social and political participation has been from Monica Lewinski onwards, and even then I didn’t feel the bizarre reality schism that has developed over the last ten years. It’s a strange world politically, and one that I almost don’t feel comfortable having an opinion about at all.

5

you say that like it’s a bad thing.

This country needs to be shaken up. We’ve been undermined & broken for too long. A little political revolution, devolution even, might inspire useful reform.

6

I wish I could, but I’m just as concerned as you. Ppl are screaming, or in tears, about this stuff. I don’t mind if ppl review information about a subject and reach different conclusions than me, but ppl seem to be jumping to the conclusion without all the bother of reasoning.

I found out about this the day after it was published:
http://www.drudgereport.com/flashrur.htm

I read it, and explained to a German friend why it was wrong. I said that communications, airplanes, and the highway system has brought the US much closer together than we were at the time of the US civil war. I said that the country as a whole was less isolated and more homogeneous now, and that there is little chance of a given state, or groups of states seceding. I said that we were Americans now, and not Virginians, Texans, etc, and there will be no secession.

I still believe the odds are greatly against it, but looking at it today, I could see where a series of events could send us down that path. When reason goes out the window, there is only violence. Reasoned discourse MUST prevail.

Conservatives who are not caught up in falsehoods (such as the “Obama is not an American” tripe) must educate those that are, and make sure they’re focused on facts, and the real issues. If you don’t agree with the Democrats, fine, but please, please argue based on the best available, correct information, or nothing will ever get done. We’ll all just chase our tails, trying to correct propaganda. If you think about it, perhaps that’s what all the disinformation is about.

7

It’s interesting that you’re conflating secession with wars. Yes there is a historical correlation, but that’s mainly because wars are catalysts for big political changes in general - it’s not a necessary precondition.

8

I was just thinking that we’re only one big event from completely splitting in half as a nation.

As I see it, the problem is that the divide between the educated, rational types and the uneducated, god-fearing types keeps getting wider and wider. It’s at a point now where people who are basically ignorant dummies have grown proud of that fact (larry the cable guy anyone?). Joe the Plumbers and Sarah Palins are creating a culture where everything’s just dandy so long as you believe in the bible and have “Proud to be an American” playing on a loop 24/7 in your brain.

I think the problem probably stems from whenever the republicans convinced the poor people to join their sides. By the large, the GOP’s ideals benefit the wealthy the most, but somehow they’ve figured out how to get the poor to vote for them by waving around the bible.

Eventually, this massive gee-shucks, country bumpkin, good ol’ folks machine has generated its own gravitational force. It’s practically sucked up the entire GOP. It used to be, when you thought of republicans you thought of rich old white guys on the golf course planning how to squeeze a few more dollars from the working poor, but now the general image of republicans is some kind of idealized huntin’ & fishin’, jesus-loves-me stereotype.

If somebody really pushed hard on a religious wedge issue on a national level, like gay marriage or church & state or evolution, I mean really really pushed, I swear you could implode the whole damn country.

For better or worse, when republicans are in charge they get stuff done. Democrats just want to talk it out and appease everyone until nothing gets done. They need to sack up for once.

9

I’ll give it a shot.

The screeching is annoying, but it doesn’t mean that some kind of health care reform won’t pass. It will be watered down, but that’s the whole point of bipartisanship and compromise – nobody gets everything they want, and what we end up is a little bit of something for everyone that we can all live with. And if healthcare reform doesn’t pass this time around, well, it didn’t pass under Clinton, and the country managed to survive.

You thought once the first black president was elected it would be all sunshine and rainbows? The fact that it’s nutcases which a theory that is laughable on its face shows just how far we’ve come. It’s not open rebellion in the streets, just a bunch of people with nothing better to do pretending that he’s not really the president. It will all disappear in 2016 – unless we elect another black president, in which case the country will have moved so far that the naysayers will be even more marginalized.

There have always been and will continue to be differences among Americans on social issues. For the most part we work them out. It’s easier to hear the screaming now that we have talk radio and the internet, but for the most part we accept the compromises that have developed through legislation and the courts, and exercise our rights to freedom of speech, assembly, and petition. That’s the American way.

I see absolutely no evidence that there will be riots in the streets by liberals, or anyone else. We just elected a black liberal Democrat as president. I think that puts to rest the argument that somehow American presidential elections are rigged in favor of conservatives. The problem in 2000 was that the election was too close. Whichever side ultimately took power, the other was going to be upset. But there was an orderly transfer of power, just as there was in 2008. The system is still working as intended.

Obama is trying to accomplish the public good, and will continue to do so. And there are definitely political leaders on both sides of the aisle who are willing to work together. Much as they might pretend to be, Rush Limaugh and Glenn Beck are not part of the political system. The real politicians know that they have to work together to get things done.

You need to step away from cable TV and the blogosphere for a while. They can make it seem like we are all at each other’s throats, but that’s hardly the case. A few disgruntled citizens have exercised their constitutional rights to make a fuss about policies that they disagree with, and have been aggressive and rude in their methods. But the country still stands. The greatest evidence that the American Experiment continues to work can be found in the sequence: Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama. Diametrically opposed viewpoints dominating the debate, coming to power and having their chance to effect change, and then peacefully ceding power when their turn is over. Whenever I watch Jon Stewart or Keith Olbermann, and get freaked out over the craziness, I remember that Barack Obama really is the president, and is doing his best to make the kind of changes that I want to see, that gay marriage is legal in a number of states (I only dreamed that I would get to see a black president or legalized gay marriage in my lifetime), that a wise Latina woman will be serving on the Supreme Court, that I have every confidence that the recession is ending and that with the help of the government we have managed to avoid a second Great Depression, and that in the real world most Americans are reasonably happy both with their lives and with their country.

10

There is indeed a correlation between secession and violence in the history of the U.S. Remember also that there are many varied forms of violence. Protests gone wrong, riots, assassination, etc. I did not use the word “war”.

11

I think it is clear that there is a Red State/Blue State divide that is unsurmountable. The term red/blue state is not accurate because the divide doesn’t neatly follow state boundries, more of a red or blue state of mind, but it’s there.

I think the townhall meetings make it clear, we are not countrymen. It’s only a matter of time until some on the right resort to domestic terrorism (again). They are already taking guns to public meetings and trying to disrupt debate.

I have more in common with a university educated European than I do with red staters. It’s a fact.

12

I think the American experiment is indeed a failure. You can’t have a country governed by its own people effectively when most of its own people are idiots. Most Americans are idiots. They are too wrapped up in Jon and Kate Plus 8, other ridiculous shows, sports, and stupid diversions. Despite the unprecedented amount of free access to knowledge provided by the internet, the majority of the American population remains ignorant and utterly unfit to govern itself. We would be better off with a monarch. I am absolutely serious.

ETA - the takeover of conservatism by the most willfully ignorant segment of society has doomed America.

13

One other point I meant to add: People get disgruntled when the economy is bad. As soon as things turn around, which should happen relatively soon, they will get fat and happy and a revolution won’t be nearly as appealing.

14

Honestly, the screeching level seems about the same from my perspective. It’s just coming from a different source these days. The reason you notice it more is because it’s coming from the opposition, instead of from your own side…

There is plenty of reasoned debate about health care. The problem is that you and others simply can’t see that there is another side. I’ve seen the ‘debates’ on this subject on this board, for instance…mainly it’s a lot of lefties dismissing the other sides arguments out of hand, and grousing to each other about how stupid everyone (i.e. American’s) are because they just won’t accept it. Personally, I think there is reasoned debate on both sides of this argument, and good points on both sides…but the screechers on both sides drown out any kind of reason. Of course this is nothing new, except that the sides have switched from Republican’s being in the drivers seat to Democrat’s being the honchos. I find it more than slightly amusing, after the last 8 years, to hear all complaints about partisanship and partisan oriented attacks.

Yeah…they are loons. Why pay any attention to the lunatic fringe? Try and keep some perspective and recall some of the lunatic fringe from the left and what they said during the Bush era. Sure, there were many and varied real complaints about that idiot…but there were also a lot of folks (on this board) who were equally fact free but very very loud in their silly assertions. And try and remember that while the Dems were beating the Pubs over the head for the last 8+ years when they were in power the Pubs were paying attention, and storing up venom for the time when the roles would be reversed. Just like the Dems were storing up their own set of woop ass throughout the Clinton years (and before), to unleash when Bush was honcho. Welcome to politics, USA style.

To quote Bob Dylan, the times, they are a changin…

Personally, I don’t think our system was ever about anything else. Looking back on history, the times when the various parties actually stood shoulder to shoulder and acted for the good of the country as a whole without regard to politics are notable because they were so rare. Nothing substantial has changed as far as I can see…look back at how Jefferson was attacked during his Presidency, or how candidates used to denigrate each other, or how the parties would put each other down in the most derogatory and inflamatory terms. Today is actually mild compared to some times in the past.

Again, welcome to politics, USA style. It’s worse to be the party in power sometimes than it is to be the scrappy underdog.

Well, I lived through the 60’s…I’d have to say you have a rose colored view of how willing the various sides were to sit down and rationally discuss their viewpoints. The main difference is that people couldn’t chat about it on message boards like this one…instead they would have to verbally screech at each other or attempt to beat the crap out of each other face to face, instead of tossing veiled insults that hopefully fly under the Mod’s radar screen. :slight_smile:

Naw…it’s turtles all the way…

-XT

15

Great posts, thanks all. I was just thinking about how things have changed in the lasy few years. The 60s saw a change in the economy where companies started to market to young people rather than older, established folks. We started to have food, TV, movies, and music that was tailored specically to the younger generation. Companies that made that transition made money hand over fist.

Now we have a new trend where the largest retail company in the world, WalMart, is targeting working class and rural types and making a fortune because other retailers have ignored the market. The Jerry Springer show also pursued this market. Fox is taking this to the extreme. Now we even have the WSJ owned my Murdoch. The WSJ was always conservative, but they were intellectual. I’m afraid that will change as well.

All this has resulted in the Joe the Plumber, Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck circus where people who just aren’t that smart are rallying the masses but have no clear philosophy or grievance beyond “we’re mad as hell and we won’t take it any more”. You’d think this would scare away the more reasonabe Republicans, but as long as the uninformed throngs are against higher taxes and more regulation they have no incentive to distance themselves.

16

What you are describing is just the latest incarnation of Populism. Rural and anti-intellectual political movements have a long history in the U.S. They have brought about some changes, but ultimately get sucked into the mainstream middle along with everyone else. Remember Ross Perot and the Reform Party? (I actually had to search Wikipedia to find the guy’s name, and that was only 1995). Since, as you pointed out, the current populists have no clear philosophy, they are unsustainable. The Republicans find it useful to stir them up, but know that ultimately they won’t be able to win an election unless they move closer to the center.

17

You kids nowadays. You think you got it bad? Why back in my day blah blah blah…

Okay, but seriously, we’ve gone through much worse times than these in living memory. Look back to the sixties and seventies. There was a President and a Vice President resigning in disgrace. There was literally rioting in the streets with troops fighting civilians in various cities. There was talk of race wars. There were people being assassinated. There was inflation and recession and rationing and price controls. There was defeat in Vietnam and a near breakdown of the American military. There were domestic terrorist groups blowing up bombs and hijacking airplanes every month. There were a few thousand Soviet nuclear missiles aimed at us and our missiles aimed at them.

And back then we had our older generation telling us truthfully that our problems were nothing compared to what they went through in the thirties and forties.

18

Yeah, some perspective would be nice. Ever hear of a decade? Called the 70s? Or the 60s? Or the 40s or the 30s? There was some turbulence in the 30s, I hear.

You think some conservative nutbags holding up signs and whining and complaining means that America is finished?

It kind of annoys me when people think our country is so fragile that a few dopes pissing their pants over a health care bill can destroy it. You guys honestly thought the right wing nutbags would just shrug their shoulders and get with the program when Obama was elected?

It’s hard, and other people don’t agree with you, so let’s forget the whole thing? That’s your attitude? Fucking hell, with people like you guys around the country is finished. We might as well march over to Washington DC and flush the Declaration of Independence down the toilet, because America is doomed if our citizens are that wussified.

19

I reject the idea that the 60s were somehow more turbulent than now. In 2000, we had a stolen election, then we had religious fanatics within the Whitehouse launch a war in Iraq, now we have armed lunatics showing up at town hall meetings to disrupt public debate. We also have a significant number of people who a) don’t understand that the earth revolves around the sun; b) reject the scientific fact of evolution; c) think the world is only a few thousand years old; and d) think Sarah Palin, a woman who participated in an exorcsim, is the way forward for America.

20

The fact that there aren’t Vietnam-era level protests against the war in Iraq is proof of the above. Things are just as fucked up as they were in the 60s if not more, but fewer Americans give a shit because they’ve been pacified with mindless diversions. That’s the real problem.