After having said that, I should add that a common failing of a lot of players who are trying to improve their game is that they play too fancy. Sometimes (the majority of the time), you should just bet your hand. Take that first example above - if I didn’t have a likely raiser sitting right to my left, I’d bet my set of fives. This way, I don’t take the risk of giving a free card, and if there is a late position raise I can re-raise and get three bets in on the flop.
“Check-raise” is one of those things that your “house rules” should cover (also is ace,2,3,4,5 s very very low hand in lowball- or a straight, and thus a loser?).
It is perfectly OK, but either way everyone should be “in the know” about it. Ban it, or specifically allow it. No one should be taken by surpise. In some games- “pretending to bet” (starting tho push chips out) is also not kosher. In a way “check-raise” is a bit like the “touch-move” rule in Chess. Ok either way, but all the players need to know which way you’re playing.
I’d say in “hold’em”, allow it- in “draw”, then no.
But AFAIK, “check-raise” IS “sandbagging”.
Oh, and note- you can’t play poker “according to Hoyle”. He was dead long before poker was a common game, and never wrote a thing about it. I suggest playing “according to Scarne”.
Out of curiosity, in what games would faking a bet be anything but unkosher?
What would be your reasoning for barring check-raise in draw or any other game? Because I’ll be switched if I can think of any.
I suppose that’s true, but you can sandbad without check-raising in the same round. According to the guys I was playing with who where against the check-raise, checking or betting low until the river and then betting big would be okay, even if you flopped a royal flush.
Yea, check-raising is just one form of sandbagging. Slow playing a hand is also considered sandbagging but I prefer to use the term solely to describe check-raising.
Now, I don’t know much about poker, but in every other game I’ve played, I’ve always held the position that if you weren’t supposed to do something, there’d be a rule against it. If the check-raise is a useful tactic, and consistent with the rules, then what’s the problem? If your opponent doesn’t like you winning that way, well, he can do it too.
There’s a big difference between a friendly game among buddies and a serious money game (especially an online one or one in a casino). Home games, at least the ones I always had, tend to feature a wide range of players, from the skilled sharks to people who have never played. If the game is more fun when you prohibit the check-raise or other strategic moves, then do whatever floats your boat, but such things should be decided in advance. (I say play it right, play it hard, and let the beginners learn a thing or two, but that’s me.)
In a casino or online, nobody is going to give up an advantage just to make it easier on someone else. I’m there to play a good game of poker and hopefully win some money, not to make sure you have a good time. If check-raising makes someone uncomfortable, they should either go back to their books and come back when they’re ready, or buy up a few racks and get ready for a lesson.
I was thinking about this today, and I got to wondering…perhaps the distaste of some players for “sandbagging” stems partly from its name. In other contexts or sports, “sandbagging” denotes truly foul behavior. For example, in golf, if you deliberately play poorly (or turn in falsely high scores) to get an artificially high handicap*, that’s called sandbagging. That kind of sandbagging turns you into a social pariah on the golf course–I still remember the guy who did it at the course I worked for when I was a teenager, and how nobody talked to him after his most egregious incident.
OTOH, “sandbagging” at cards is, as so many posters rightly say here, perfectly on the level for most games.
*For those unfamiliar with golf and handicaps: If you’re playing in a “net” game, you subtract your handicap from your actual score to get your net score. Since the object of golf is to get the lowest score possible, you can see how an artificially high handicap can give you an advantage in such matches…