Is the check/raise poker tactic "sleazy"?

Cafe Society
1

I was just playing poker online when someone did a check/raise on the same round of betting - you know, checking (no bet) the first time the bet comes to you, and then (assuming someone after you offers up a bet), raising when it comes back to you. Here’s what happened today:
Player 1 did a check/raise and won the pot.
Player 2 asks if that is a common practice of his.
P1 says no, he’s a newbie and he’s sorry.
P3 (me) says that the check/raise can be effective
P4 says “at least we know where Pash stands on the subject”
P2 goes off on how sleazy it is, and how most poker players do not consider it “above the board”

Now, I’m no Poker pro, but I’ve played in my share of home games, played in a few casinos and watched a lot of poker on TV. But I’ve never heard this. I went back and forth with P2 asking why it was any sleazier than bluffing or sandbagging, but he just kept saying if I continue to do it I would be judged by other players as having bad ethics, and generally the kind of guy you don’t want to play with.

The game was non-tournament Omaha 5/10 (for play money), but P2 said this “guideline” is in place for all poker games, including tournament play.

So, is this practice really frowned upon? Do any of you agree it should be? I always just thought of it as a strategy like any other betting strategy.

I put this in CS instead of GD since we’re talking about a game

Pash

2

What the hell? That makes no sense. The guy was probably trying to screw with your mind so you’d lose.

3

The check-raise is one of the best weapons a player has to trap their opponents and make money. If someone is going on tilt, complaining about it, just tell them to shut up or say ‘sorry, won’t do it again’, and then do it again when the time is right.

To disallow the check-raise is to disallow one of the most import aspects of Hold 'em.

4

My dad’s poker group called that “sandbagging,” and didn’t allow it. They felt that if you were proud enough of your hand to bet a certain amount, then bet a certain amount.

They were playing once when a small earthquake hit. One of the players said, “Earthquake!” Another guy said, “You here to talk or to play?”

5

There is nothing wrong with the check-raise, unless you are in collusion with another player and can tell them to raise to allow you to raise.

If you are at a table where you think people are doing this, then you should just leave.

But if you aren’t cheating, the check-raise is just a basic poker strategy.

6

Your co-players sound like sore losers to me. Anything you can do within the rules to get an advantage is fair and respectable.

7

A question to those who think the check-raise is wrong:

What the holy hell are you talking about?

Check-raise is a basic, fundamental poker tactic, one I personally use quite a bit (and have never been criticized for.) If you don’t think deception and trickery is good in cards, you should be playing Crazy Eights, not poker. The entire POINT of poker is to trick people with your betting strategy.

It’s like telling a football player it’s wrong to block.

8

Let me add to the chorus. The comment about being “proud enough to make the bet” is simply asinine. If you always bet what the hand is “worth”, then you’re not playing Poker. Poker is a game of bluffing and misdirection.

Let’s look at it another way. By the above logic, checking is an indication that your hand isn’t worth any money. If someone bets into you, you ought to fold then. Calling the bet means that your hand is worth money after all, and you were wrong for checking in the first place.

Unless those players never call after checking, then they are hypocrits.

OTOH, check-raising is very often the wrong play. Nothing screams “Concede, you stupid punk!” like check-raising. If one has the nuts, check-rasing just scares away the fish. Check-calling looks more like you’re hoping to hit a hand, and draws in more money, as people bet into you to make you pay to see cards.

9

No check-raise? That’s plain asinine. Poker is not a game of playing the cards, but playing the players. That’s where most of the skill lies. If you just play your cards, it turns into a pure game of chance. A check-raise is a standard move, and something you do to keep the players in and to maximize the pot. Otherwise, if you bet hard, everybody folds on marginal hands, and what good does that do you?

Check-raise enough, though, and then you’ve also set yourself up perfectly for bluffing. Next time around, if you check-raise, inexperienced players (such as the ones you’re playing) will most likely think you have a strong hand, and fold.

Bluffing is half the game in poker, and if you never bluff, you’re not going to do well in a real game. The check-raise (and its cousin, the minimum bet-hard raise) are basic strategies in any decent poker player’s arsenal.

10

I “sandbag” all the time. Last game I was blessed with a straight flush (how often does that happen?!) If I had bet the hand’s worth, everybody would have folded and I would have won the ante. YeeHaw. But by frowning at my cards, “reluctantly” matching the raises, checking, and then slapping a rather large raise down, I ended up with a substantial pot*. Bluffing is convincing everybody they should fold. “Sandbagging” is convincing them they should bet high. Both are equally fair.

To me, there is no sleazy tactic in poker (except cheating of course). All is fair. When you want an opposing player to bet low, ask him if he’s paid his car insurance yet. If you want to him bet high, congratulate him on his recent raise. If unsure, check and make up your mind as the bet goes around the table. Talking shit is one of the ways to make it even more fun.

The check raise is an elegant misdirection, and the whole point of poker is to make the other players think the relative worth of the hands is something other than it is.
*It also helped that one of the players had four kings. Bwahahahah! And how often does that happen? He grumbled for the rest of the night.

11

I believe the technical term for those players is “broke-ass loser.”

Incidentally, I got twenty that says that player who said that was angling for his own sandbag later in the game if he got a really sweet hand. Like everyone else said, it’s all about misdirection.

12

My kids like to watch those poker tournament TV shows. I see check-raise a lot there. If you follow certain players, you can pretty much predict based on their initial cards when they are going to do it.

In online poker, you should pretty much ignore anything any other player says that’s not related to the actual action of the game. That is, ignore the content. Just keep track of how much BS they’re throwing around to gauge their mental condition.

13

People who object to the perfectly valid check/raise tactic sound like the kinds of whiners who think the game is more fun if all face cards are wild.

If you really must insist on players showing “pride”, then use the jacks-or-better-to-open rule and only play with conservative bettors, so nobody with a good hand will check, for fear everyone else will, leaving only the antes to collect.

14

You have to gauge the calibre of opposition. Inexperienced players will follow you along if you don’t jack it up too high, or if you wait until the next round of bets and check raise off a low card or something. Against players you know are conservative, it can be used as a backdoor bluff. I’ve used a check raise or two just to scare up a pot when I had a nothing hand.

15

I have seen the comment in many Texas Hold’Em books that some people consider this to be non-kosher.

In Hold’Em, such an attitude is nuts. Learning when and how to check-raise is one of the things that separates a beginning player from one who is winning some money now and again.

I don’t play Omaha, so I can’t speak to whether the tactic is as useful there, but I can’t imagine it isn’t.

Some friendly poker games take on a “let the best hand win” attitude, where hammering at other players or making moves to drive players out is frowned upon. I think it takes all the fun out of it, myself, and anyone who would expect such deference in a real money game needs to get a grip.

16

If someone complains about check-raising, I suggest you keep playing them, because they clearly know nothing about poker. And be sure to use the information they’ve just given you about their play style against them in the future. The interesting thing is how he assumes that you’re holding a strong hand rather than bluffing strength with the check-raise.

17

It’s not poker without the check-raise.

18

According to Doyle Brunson, two-time World Series of Poker winner, playing poker without check-raising is like playing football without the forward pass.

19

If all the players decide not to have check-raising, them’s the rules. You can always play at another table. Or be a jerk (if you know the table rules/preferences and choose to disregard them).

20

Without the check-raise, the positional advantage in poker becomes overwhelming. In a game like Holdem, in which position already carries a lot of power, taking away the check-raise would ruin the game.

There are many reasons why you should check-raise. One of them is that if you never do it, your opponents will pick up on that and simply bet whenever you check. Other uses for the check-raise depend on your position, and where you think the likely bet is going to come from.

Let’s look at an example: You’re in the big blind with 55. A good player under the gun raises. You get several callers. You call an extra bet. The flop comes up Ac9s5h. What do you do?

If you bet, it’s pretty likely that the next player will raise. With everyone else facing two bets, and no major draws on the board, the likely result is that everyone will fold and you’ll wind up heads-up against this player. Not a good result for a set. Instead, you check, the player bets, people call, then you raise. Now you’re building a big pot for your set.

Here’s a different example. You have AQ in early position. There are many callers, and a pre-flop raise from late position. The pot is already large. The Flop is As9s7. There is no way that this flop is getting checked out, so a check-raise is highly likely to succeed. Furthermore, at this point with one vulnerable pair and several draws on the board and a large pot already, you would like everyone to fold. So you check, it gets checked to the pre-flop raiser who bets, you raise, and trap everyone else for two bets. Now you get the gutshots, underpairs, three-flushes, and all the other draws and weak hands to fold, maximizing your chance of winning this pot. In this case, your check-raise is designed to thin the field, and not build a big pot.

The check-raise is just as valuable in Omaha, for the same reasons.