Is the electrostatics concept of ‘Charge’ a reality or a myth?

I‘ve never been completely convinced about the concept of ‘electric charge’ in Physics, despite the key role that it plays in both electrostatics and nuclear physics. So I’ve put together this article, which aims to list the shortcomings of the concept as I understand it. Each point made, may be challenged or discarded, but as a whole I feel they make a compelling case.

So I’d appreciate learning from anyone, how it is possible to justify the concept of an ‘electrostatic charge’ and to make the case convincing enough so that I can believe in it.

		**Introduction.**				

One of the essential features of electrostatics is the concept of ‘charge’. But what exactly is known about ‘charge’? The birth of electric charge is generally believed to start with Benjamin Franklin’s Leyden Jar experiments, which led to the terms ‘positive charge’ and ‘negative charge’ being incorporated into physics. If he had described the Leyden jars as being ‘charged’ and ‘uncharged’, then physics may possibly never have adopted the concept of ‘charges residing upon particles’. To this day, physicists are a little exasperated by having to explain that the positive terminal of a battery stores negatively charged electrons.

But the flow of electrical fluid, as Franklin coined it in the 1750‘s, from the Leyden jars was thought then to carry away the positive charge that was held within the Leyden jar, simply by being negatively charged itself. So the concept (or myth) of the negatively charged electron was born. Whether Franklin would agree with this account is immaterial to the point of this analysis. All that is cogent is whether you will continue to believe in the concept of ‘positive’ and ‘negative’ charge.

	**Points challenging the Concept **

To put ‘electrical charge’ into its context, there is no dispute about our technical abilities to harvest and store electrons in vast quantities, before they spark off or short circuit. The processes of accumulating electrons by chemical reactions in batteries, rubbing fur on amber, or turning Wilmslow machines and then storing them in Leyden Jars or in a multiple of other more sophisticated capacitors and batteries, are known and understood. Electrostatics, as defined by the study of static electrons is real physics. All that is at dispute is the concept that particles, such as the electron and the proton, carry a ‘charge’. So what are the arguments against the existence of charge?

Firstly, a ‘charge’ is restricted to only having two independent forms, called a ‘positive charge’ and a ‘negative charge’. It’s conceivable that a ‘neutral charge’, as distinct from ‘no charge’ exists, with the ability to transform into positive and negative charges, such as occurs in the transformation of a neutron into a positively charged proton, a negatively charged electron and an anti-neutrino. But the concept of a ‘neutral charge’ is not defined as such in electrostatics or particle physics and this adds to the view that electrostatic charge on the proton and the electron does not play any part in this fundamental transformation process of the neutron into a proton!

No-one knows what the physical structure of a charge actually is, but conventionally, it is considered to be a point charge, which axiomatically implies that it has no discernible dimensions or wavelength and therefore effectively doesn‘t exist!

Each and every charge, whether positive or negative, has exactly the same magnitude, although no one knows why it doesn’t vary, which would be a more realistic expectation of a ‘force wielding’ entity, such as that exhibited by magnets and magnetic fields!

Every charge of either sign, is believed to be able to create a three dimensional force field around itself, whether created by an infinite number of ‘electrostatic lines of force’ or through an ‘electrostatic continuum’. This field concept is thought to stretch right across the universe in its influence! Since Einstein introduced his ‘general theory of relativity’ to explain the nature of a gravitational field, then electrostatic charge is the only field theory, which still claims to have this ‘infinite reach’ property!

The electrostatic field created by electrostatic charges is viewed as continuous and smooth, having no discrete ‘quantum mechanical’ nature! It is also not clearly understood how an electrostatic field created within and around a mass of charged particles, such as a ‘gas plasma’, interacts with Einstein’s ‘spacetime’ concept of a gravitational field or indeed the prevailing magnetic fields.

Like charges repel each other and unlike charges attract each other. This concept enables them to create a physical force upon one another. Whether this occurs through lines of electrostatic force or within a continuum of electrostatic energy, is unknown but is largely immaterial to the argument regarding the existence or otherwise of electrostatic charge.

No energy is required to maintain this universal electrostatic field! Energy is only used when a charge changes its location under an external force such as a magnetic field or new charges are created from an atomic process, such as the ‘pair production’ of the electron and anti-electron (positron).

The charge upon an isolated particle cannot change its magnitude, but is viewed as being an infinite point resource without the need for any regeneration of its charge, even when it has interacted with another charged particle!

How the field energy is exchanged between like and unlike charges is a unknown! It could well be that the electrostatic ‘lines of force’ from a positively charged particle is different from the electrostatic ‘lines of force’ of a negatively charged particle and in this way, the different charges know to respond by being attracted or repelled. Alternatively, in a continuum field, all charges universally must somehow be able to sense each other’s presence and charge type, to which they can respond accordingly. But how this ‘charge map’ of the universe is created and maintained for the continuum field, no-one knows!

Nor is it known how moving charged particles react to one another within an electrostatic field, bearing in mind that moving charged particles, such as the electron are known to create a magnetic field around themselves. So an electrostatic field could in reality be a subset of an electromagnetic field, which then offers it the extra functionality of being able to exchange forces through electromagnetic photons, but this seems to be unknown!

It is thought that the universe probably contains equal numbers of positive and negative charges, which makes the universe itself neutrally charged. Either that or electric charges don‘t exist!

If a region of space could be defined where the charges were not equally balanced, then the charges will attract and repel each other until equilibrium is achieved. Either that or they would all end up either clumped together in the middle, strung out in a line of ±±± or, if they all had the same sign, repelled away from each other onto the boundaries of the region!

The force generated by the individual electrical charges at a particular point within this region can theoretically be calculated by summing up the individual attracting and repelling vector forces acting at that point from every charge in the region. But as all electrostatic charges have an infinite three dimensional reach, (whether it is believed to be a continuum of electrostatic force or an infinite number of electrostatic lines of force), no region can be isolated from the charges outside its boundary and hence the net force will always be zero at every point in the field, through the cancellation of infinite attracting and infinitely repelling forces!

Charges cannot exist by themselves but are assumed to reside within, around or upon particles, such as the electron and the proton. It is unknown exactly what form the charge takes in conjunction with the electron or proton particles. Is it spread over the surface, is it a constituent part of the particle like snowflakes in a snowball, or does it circulate around the particle like a magnetic field? Or doesn’t it exist! No-one knows.

The magnitude of the force that they can exert upon one another obeys a law devised by Coulomb, namely: Kq1q2/d2, where K is Coulombs constant, q is the magnitude of the charge and d is the straight line distance between them. This formula has some apparently inexplicable ramifications in other branches of physics that equally employ the concept of electrostatic charge, such as the nuclear physics of the atom!

Each point so far may be subject to correction or rebuttal, but as a whole it leads to the view that the concept of electrostatic charge is weak and unconvincing and if so, so are the theoretical constructs based upon them.

Next and finally, there are some aspects of the concept of ‘charge’, that don’t stack up with ‘real world’ phenomenon of physics and as such mitigate against the existence of the ‘electrostatic charge’. Three of them are as follows, but perhaps you can point to others.

**Shortcomings of the Charge concept in Particle Physics**	
  1. When a charged ‘particle’ collides with its oppositely charged ‘anti-particle‘, their attracting forces according to Coulomb’s Law are infinite, as the distance between them is zero, so they must theoretically bind together with infinite force, but in reality, they annihilate one another!

  2. Two electrons with differing spin orientations are known to reside in pairs around the nucleus of an atom, but as the distance between their respective negative charges is zero, the repelling force according to Coulomb’s law must be infinite. But if it was, then electron pairs would not exist, but they do!

  3. Electrons, as we know, can be bottled up within magnetic fields and so the question arises, that “if an electron is held within a Penning Trap, is its charge contained within the trap or is still able to communicate through the magnetic trap to the outside world“? If the charge is held within the trap then it loses its ‘infinite reach’ ability and the ‘neutrality of the universal electrostatic charge’ is violated, as no counteracting positive charge has been created. If the electric charge on the electron in the Penning trap is able to communicate outside of the magnetic trap, then the trapped electron could be influenced by electric charges outside of the trap, to the point of extracting the electron from the trap!

That’s it! As far as I know, text books on the subject don’t deal with any of these issues. But maybe some key articles do and you can point me to them.

Your first two questions, in order to be answered properly, need to be addressed using quantum electrodynamics, not just the ordinary classical electromagnetism you learn in introductory (i.e., non-grad-school) classes. Suffice to say that QED works, and does not involve any contradictions or paradoces in such basic situations.

To your third question, just because the charge is contained somewhere doesn’t mean that the electric field due to that charge is also contained.

You need to define your terms.

Reality = a model the speaker finds useful.

Myth = a model the speaker doesn’t find useful.

As an electrical engineer, I find the mainstream scientific model, including charge, fields, etc. to be quite useful.

Unfortunately they all need correction or are misaligned with current understanding, so the subsequent conclusion that “as a whole it leads to the view that…” doesn’t stand.

While quantum electrodynamics is needed for the full picture, even a classical approach handles many of the issues you are stumbling over. As a first step, it is misleading to think of charge as something that exists separately from the particles that carry the charge. For example, in this statement:

Would you ask the same question about the mass of an electron? Where does the mass live upon or around the electron? It doesn’t make sense to ask this because the mass of an electron is part of its very definition (at least classically). Electrons have a few properties, and mass is one of them. Charge is another. It isn’t something that exists separately and is stuck to the electron. The electron is the charge (as are other charged particles).

I pick this point out only because it seems to pervade many of your other concerns. In full, though, each of your concerns has an issue either because it is not employing the mathematics of electromagnetism fully or correctly, or because some of the things you label as unknown are actually known, or because you have declared true facts as false because they go against your sense of how things ought to be. For this last one: the past hundred years or so of physics have demonstrated resoundingly that our intuition is a poor judge of What Could Possibly Be Correct.

Our current understanding of charges is beautifully coherent, makes firm predictions, and is exquisitely tested by experiment. Some of the trickier underlying concepts require careful study, but it all works out quite nicely. Textbooks are actually a good place to get this information, but they usually require a formal setting (as at a university) to get through them in a fruitful way.

I put my hands up to a bit of ‘marketing’ with the use of word Myth to attract attention to the post. I would define Myth as something not based upon reality, but I preferred yours.

I favour the saying ‘If it works, don’t knock it’ , but steps forward in physics come from individuals challenging the ‘perceived wisdom of the time’.

Others have inferred that I just don’t understand the concept of ‘Charge’ and have pointed me in the direction of QED, so I’ll be going there. Wish me luck? Thanks for the post.

“All Models are Wrong, But Some are Useful” George E. P. Box - Wikiquote

As long as we’re correcting misconceptions.

It’s “Others have implied…”

I think “inferred” works, too.

Well, the OP definitely has some misconceptions, but it might be difficult to pin down just what those misconceptions are, and it’s always tough to correct misconceptions without first finding them.

What “is” electric charge? What “is” any fundamental property, when you get right down to it? Without getting into a philosophical debate about the ultimate nature of reality or how we know anything, what we can say with certainty is that electric charge inter-relates with several other well-defined concepts (mass, energy, etc.) in that we can derive mathematical equations that accurately predict their behavior in relation to one another. If you insist there is no such real “thing” as electric charge, what model do you propose to replace it, that isn’t just a rebranding or disguised version of it?

Right now the only real “contradictions” (more like incompatibilities) in theory is fully reconciling quantum physics with general relativity.

pfft. what do engineers know?

:wink: (mech. eng. here…)

At the simplest level, you can just say “Electric charge is a property that certain particles have, and it follows this set of rules”. Accept that definition as sufficient, and it’ll get you through all of the undergraduate physics courses, and most of the graduate ones. Look for a deeper answer, and you can find it, but it takes a lot more background to be able to understand the answers.

With the confirmation of the Higgs Boson, we have an explanation of what endows matter with the quality of mass.

Does some similar mechanism endow protons and electrons with the quality of charge?

Hi, Chronos,
Many thanks for your reply. Pointing me towards QED was very helpful and I appreciated your answer to my Penning Trap query.

There are acres of things in theoretical physics that we don’t know how to handle. A quantum theory of gravity is but one. If you restrict yourself to particular sorts of theories and to certain types of issues, then what you say could be true, but such restrictions don’t seem terribly natural, IMO.

(I know this is just a springboard to your actual question, but to make sure…) The Higgs field provides mass to the W and Z bosons in a deep way; provides mass to the quarks and charged leptons in a completely different way; may or may not provide the masses of the neutrinos; and does not provide the vast majority of mass in protons and neutrons (and therefore in the universe) which instead comes from the binding energy of the strong force.

Not in the Standard Model. Charge comes part and parcel with the existence of forces. You can’t have a meaningful force unless you say how strongly a particle experiences that force. And that strength is what we call the particle’s charge. (Particles are charged under the other forces (weak force and strong force), too.)

And while we’re at it, the Higgs boson itself doesn’t have much to do with the process for bestowing mass on particles-- It’s just a completely different side effect of the existence of the Higgs field.

Shit, I always used “did not catch fire” as my metric for success, but I was a scare-quotes “engineer.”

Originally posted by Pasta.

I am not trying to say that attraction and repulsion are not vital forces to keep particles, atoms and molecules together, they are. But may I put my point a different way.

We accept that the electron and proton have the integral characteristics of mass, spin and charge. But, with an analogy, you could say that a human being has the integral characteristics of height, weight and age. No-one has doubts about height and weight just like there is not doubts about electron mass and spin. But ‘age’ is more like ‘charge’. Consider a cohort of human beings in the world who were ‘born on the same day‘. They age for biological reasons, not because the earth passed round the sun for a particular number of times. To determine how old someone is you need to examine the biological degradation in the tissues of the body, not count the number of times our planet orbits the sun, although there will be a correlation. Bio-chemists are working on this problem.

The last thing I want to be is adversarial, but I hope you see the point. Charge could be replaced by a more subtle or sophisticated concept, that explains the attraction/repelling forces of charged particles in a more understandable form.

Originally posted by Chronos.

If this is true, then it implies that any positively charged proton in the vicinity of the trap is able to attract the negatively charged electron out of the Penning trap and the trap would never work, but it does.

This perception of ‘positive and negative charge’ has implications also for atomic physics theory, for if the proton of a hydrogen atom were able to attract multiple electrons from the region around itself, then it would be able to fill up its s,p,d,f levels and create a very unusual series of negatively ionised hydrogen atoms. As far as I know, these ionised forms of atoms do not exist!

To prevent this phenomenon occurring for every atomic element of the Periodic Table, you would have to introduce a new atomic rule, which states that “Every proton in the nucleus of an element is only able to interact and attract one particular electron residing in an orbital level around itself.” This would work, but severely curtails the concept of charge much more than it is currently perceived.

There is one other serious shortcoming of the concept of concept of charge and that involves the make up of the proton and neutron, which I add to my original post as question number four.

  1. The proton was designated to have the same magnitude of charge as the electron, which serves its purpose in explaining the functioning of the atom. But this was complicated, when it was discovered that the proton and the neutron actually had sub particles, termed the Up and Down Quarks. As individual quarks have not so far been isolated, the problem arose as to how to allocate the proton’s charge to its three quarks. Logically perhaps the magnitude of the charge would be split three ways to allocate plus one third of the protons positive charge to the two quark types. But this led to the necessity to explain why the neutron, made up from the same two quark types, had no charge!

The answer reached was to allocate a charge to the Up Quark of plus two thirds of the proton’s charge magnitude and minus one third to the Down Quark. And the sums work, but for me it is stretching credibility in the concept of charge, for it implies that a positive charge and presumably the negative charge can now be split into both positive and negative charges. By doing so, it introduces a whole new ‘degree of freedom’ to the concept and functioning of the theory of charge!

But to summarise, I am not trying to say that attraction and repulsion are not vital forces to keep particles, atoms and molecules together, they are.

Once again, many thanks for your replies. They are much appreciated even they have not totally erased my misgivings about the concept or reality of charge. But I certainly intend to return to QED afresh for the answers to my questions that you say are there.

Your question 4 almost makes it sound like you think quarks have arbitrary properties assigned to them. Just because we can’t put a quark by itself in a jar of formaldehyde doesn’t mean we can’t learn things about it.

I can’t stop to give a thorough history of quarks here in this thread, but basically you had these phases:

  1. An observation was made that basic particles were far, far more numerous than anyone had expected (the “particle zoo”)
  2. One explanation for that observation was a set of even smaller particles that could be recombined to make up the zoo.
  3. By looking at all the particles we knew about, certain patterns were observed that could be satisfied if we imagined quarks with certain properties.
  4. To see the imaginary quarks fit reality, predictions/hypotheses were made. “If quarks are real, then I should be able to do/see x…”
  5. Tests were carried out, and the results analyzed.
  6. As results came in, the quark model was confirmed/refined with real data.

So the kinds of questions you’re asking are very good questions, but at the current stage of science, most of them have already been asked and answered.

No. Classically this would be like saying that a ball lying in a pit won’t stay there if the moon goes overhead. The potential well the ball or electron is sitting in is deeper than the remote attracting object or proton can manage to attract it out from. A Penning Trap could be so weak that a nearby proton could haul the electron out of it - but it is hard to imagine why one would design one so.

Non classically the electron could tunnel out.

A Penning Trap is still just charges interacting, just that you need to add relativity to work out what the heck is going on.

Reading up on QED will help enormously. It will give a totally different take on the whole question. Really, so different you won’t understand how different until you read it. But also one that makes sense. Herein you will find some your desired more sophisticated understanding.

Understanding electron orbitals is not possible without quantum mechanics. You simply can’t make it work otherwise. You need the Pauli exclusion principle before you even take the most simple step.

To add to what dracoi wrote about quarks (Qunatum Chromodynamics QCD) - the mathematics of QCD are very well sorted, and they make extraordinary fine predictions that are verified in very complex interactions and circumstances. Anything from predicting the fine behaviour of a nucleus, exotic particles, or in inside of a neutron star.