That was also stupid beyond my ability to comprehend, but if memory serves, Cercei went into that meeting after Sansa told her what was about to go down. Knowing what we know of Cercei, Ned didn’t stand a chance.
Cersei, FYI
Sansa witnessed Joffrey attempting to murder Arya in episode 2.
Puddleglum, you gloss over torturing unconvicted prisoners until false confessions pretty easily. Also ignoring the roving bands of violent thugs that beat the shit out of anyone that offends their sense of (perfectly legal! booze and prostitutes!) morality. Both have been pointed out multiple times in this thread, kinda weird to just ignore it and repeat your stance on the High Sparrow.
I don’t think she believed that Joffrey would really have killed Arya. And I don’t know that she realized what the real stakes were for anyone in that moment, or even that the stakes could be so high.
The torturing prisoners is bad, but consider how everyone else treats prisoners. Both Ned and Jon execute prisoners with seemingly no trial. Roose Bolton spends the first season asking Robb to kill all the Lannister prisoners. Dany has the Tarleys burned, the witch burned, the masters crucified, and one guy eaten and there are no trials. Tyrion is imprisoned in an air cell and only gets a trial by bribing the jailer.
I never got the impression that the High Sparrow was telling his followers to beat people up in the streets, but that they were doing it out of excessive zeal.
Did he stop them? If they follow him, and he is their leader, then how is he not responsible for what they are doing in his name?
Would your opinion change if you became a target of the High Sparrow? Say if you lied to protect a loved one, and now you are being tortured? Still all good?
Where do you think this excessive zeal came from?
Was it really, though? Did the High Sparrow ever imprison or prosecute anybody who wasn’t rich and powerful?
My take is more that he was after some sort of twisted revenge against high-borns. He may have claimed, or even believed, that his motives had to do with helping commoners, but it was more about torturing and bringing down those in power.
I think all his self-serving talk about how humble he was was pure BS, and his actions had nothing at all to do with religious beliefs. He just got off on being judge, jury, and executioner.
Definitely a villain.
And even if he really was after equality for everyone what he meant is equality under the boot of the church.
And his army? The commoners he helped out.
I think you do have to consider the context of the society he was in to evaluate his relative level of evil. This is a society in which the nobility and the wealthy can arbitrarily kill, torture, mutilate, and rape commoners with apparently total impunity. Torturing prisoners for confessions is standard operating procedure for everyone, not just the Church. That is, if you care about a confession at all, and don’t just summarily execute them on suspicion or torture them just for fun.
The Faith of the Seven is also effectively a state religion in Westeros, like Catholicism was in medieval Europe. If booze, prostitution, and sodomy are against Church rules, they are de facto also illegal for the state. They have been tolerated up to now because the state and the Church hierarchy are corrupt and have turned a blind eye to enforcement.
The Sparrows and the Church Militant are certainly oppressive in the context of modern secular, liberal societies. But they seek equal treatment of the high and the low, the rich and the poor. If they punish people, it’s for defined offenses according to their code. What we don’t see them doing, as far as I recall, is wholesale roundups of heretics and burning them alive as in the Inquisition (or other current religions such as the Lord of Light).
I won’t argue that the High Sparrow is free of blame, but I think he is seen as a villain more because of his actions against the sympathetic characters Margaery and Loras. If he had only punished Cersei, he’d be regarded in a much better light. And while we find the Sparrows and the Faith Militant repugnant due to the historical (and recent) horrors inflicted by religious fanatics, in the GoT world they are morally superior to the nobility they are fighting. (Admittedly this is not saying much.)
That wasn’t a modern secular liberal society they were oppressing. Their religion is highly oppressive to their medieval standards and life with the church in power would have been vastly worse for everyone. Just because they wanted to shit on everyone equally does not make them an improvement.
I said it was offensive to us because we are coming from the context of a modern secular liberal society rather than a medieval tyranny.
If so, that’s not shown in GoT. While oppressive, they appeared to be far less oppressive than the nobility were.
I disagree that they wanted to shit on everyone. But even if they did, it would make it an improvement, actually.
Yeah, no. Their strict and violent adherence to their religion would have resulted in a much more oppressive society than anything the seven kingdoms has ever experienced. The church in charge is absolutely worst case scenario for everyone from the lowest peasant to the highest noble.
I don’t think you just get to declare this. It’s the most common religion, but it’s not a state religion. Two of the seven kingdoms don’t follow the Seven at all. There’s no indication that booze or prostitution are illegal and many indications that they aren’t. Prostitution in particular is taxed indicating it’s within the legal framework of the seven kingdoms.
But even if it was the rule, it’s still evil for bands of thugs to enforce it themselves by smashing people with clubs.
You really don’t need to go any farther than this. Yes, he is a villain.
I suppose the Faithful Militant were carrying around those spiked clubs like the one that got lodged in The Mountain v.2’s breastplate were only for show.
I don’t know about absolutely worst case scenario, but I think there’s an interesting question about the high sparrow’s motives and intents here. Suppose he sincerely believes that a theocracy would be the best possible government for the little people. He might be wrong, but he’s sincere (and given how shitty all other governments in Westeros have ever been, seems like he has some justification for that belief). In that case, taking actions to bring about that theocracy seems justified.
Think of him a bit like some of the sincere members of the Russian Revolution before Stalin took over and turned their idealistic communism into effectively a dictatorship. They were (most of us would say) misguided to think that communism would ever work, but if they were sincere, were they truly villains?
And yes, the church had gangs of thugs wandering around the streets. But didn’t every powerful group? Joffrey had the city watch find and murder all of Robert’s bastards. Was the city watch any more likely to be honest and sincere and bound by the rule of law than the church gangs?
If a gang does mistreat you and you report them to their superiors, is the high sparrow going to listen and take your report seriously? More or less likely than Cersei or Ramsay?
As others have pointed out, many of the high sparrow’s flaws are a product of the setting. He gets some number of minus points for religious fanaticism (albeit, in a world where the supernatural does exist). He gets some of those credited back to his account for sincerity. And he gets a TON of plus points for being one of the few rulers who does seem to genuinely care about the welfare of the people.
(Also of note: we kind of assume, due to the real world analogy, that his church courts would arrest people on the merest hint of superstition and then torture them with no justification. And I don’t remember if that happens more explicitly in the books. But in the show, which is presumably what we started out talking about, the three people who we see the church trying are, in fact, 100% guilty of the crimes they are accused of… although most of us would argue that extramarital gay sex should not be a crime.)
I guess turning into a zombie horde would probably be worse, but as far as human rulers were concerned their abuse would be far more widespread as it is grounded on wanting to force their religion on absolutely every one instead of petty noble power trips.
“You will come with us, Your Grace, or there will be violence.”
Cersei (stepping behind the Mountain): “I choose violence.”