Is the idea of God enough?

Great Debates
1

Lately, I’ve been pondering whether or not it is possible to preserve God and what is good about the idea by simply divorcing God from any and all demands to be real. Get rid of all notions that there’s a real God out there somewhere, and reduce religion down to simply God the Idea.

After all, ideas are powerful. Ideas may not move mountains, but they move people, and people move mountains.

What if it’s perfectly fine for God to be just an idea, and only exist in the hearts and minds of human beings?

Freedom is just an idea. It’s changed the world.
Love is just an idea. It means everything to us humans.
Science is just an idea. It’s unlocked the wonders of the universe to us.

Fictional characters aren’t “real”, yet many of them have touched the lives of millions. Heck, Santa Claus isn’t real (sorry, kids!), yet the thought of him warms hearts and inspires people all over the world.

So does God really need to be any more real than Santa Claus?

Is it important for Him to exist outside of the hearts and minds and souls and spirits of the people of Earth?

Can we worship, cherish, be inspired by, learn from, and in all sense have a hold a God that we freely and openly admit is not “real”?

If God exists in the hearts and minds of the people of the world, does He really need to be anywhere else?

Appendix A : Full disclosure, I was raised entirely without religion. I have never experienced it first hand. I’ve only been inside any church when I was attending a wedding, a funeral, or a choir concert.

Appendix B : Please, religious people, atheists, others… keep this debate appropriate for this forum and not The Pit. :slight_smile: thanks.

2

But these ideas are powerful precisely because they correspond to something real. If you think freedom is only an idea, ask the person who isn’t free; if you think love is only an idea, ask the guy who loves but isn’t loved in return. If God is only an idea, without a corresponding reality, then it’s like rainbow unicorns–pretty to think about, but not very edifying in real life.

3

Santa Clause deals with the critically important ‘naughty or nice’ question, but that and one crazy day a year is really all he’s asked to do.

Do children stop being good after they find out Santa isn’t real? If being good is the goal and children are good after Santa’s hoax is revealed did we ever need him a all?

If people are good in their hearts and minds god seems irrelevant.

4

God exists, so your attempt to get rid of Him is going to run right up against Him and you will find yourself battling God. God has proven Himself throughout the ages that man is incapable of getting rid of Him.

Also unlike other beliefs/ideas that people ‘grow away from’ like Santa, God is one belief that people grow towards.

5

Which “god”?

6

Well, when you put it that way, God is real… ask someone who has just lost their faith, or gained it. Ask someone who just had a vivid dream of a conversation with a dead relative that there is no afterlife.

Point to some freedom that exists outside of a human being.

God is as real as love. No more, no less.

7

Any, all, take your pick.

Shall we say, the general idea of God that one can deduce from the natures of the three dominant global monotheisms.

This is completely outside the words of any holy books, by the way. So don’t think this has to be seen as the God of the Bible, or the Koran, or whatnot.

8

You say “any god”, but don’t you mean any “any god that fits your idea of what a god should be like?” Not every deity fits into the “God is Love” profile, y’know. I noticed that you immediately followed that with the qualification that your “god” should fit the ideals of one of the three currently most popular religions, and that it it must be monotheistic. Are there any other qualifications you’d like add?

9

Sure. Someone who is not allowed to sit at the luncheon counter, or not allowed to vote, is denied a freedom, and this denial of freedom is an external factor. When one gains these freedoms, it will be due to a change in external circumstances. Freedom is, in this since, at least partially an external phenomenon; it doesn’t just exist in your head. So when you say:

That means God and freedom differ in at least one important respect. In the most important respect: that of existence.

So I just used ‘existence’ as a predicate. Philosophical purists who want to make a big deal of it can form a line on the left to bite me.

10

Is there anything the idea of god can do that can’t be done a another, possibly better, way? As far as we know right now, god isn’t necessary for people to behave morally, for life to exist, for there to be charity, etc. So why is even the idea of god necessary?

11

He hasn’t proven himself to anyone. Your mind is still playing tricks on you, kanicbird.

12

Tell that to Him :smiley:

13

That’s Her, blasphemer.

14

The whole point of God is that he isn’t just an idea; he’s a real being who wields supreme authority in a way that you can’t argue with. As an idea, he can’t fill the same role, just as Santa couldn’t fill the same role if people thought he was real.

If parents thought that their kids’ behavior was accurately characterized by whether Santa left presents or not, Christmas would be a whole other holiday.

“Well, I thought you’d been extra good this year; but you didn’t get any toys again, so you must still have been misbehaving. I never caught you at it, but Santa knows if you’ve been naughty or nice. Get the belt.”

15

It exists collectively in the heads of numerous humans. But it has no existence independent of the human brain. If humans all dropped dead tomorrow from a massive epidemic, freedom would cease to exist as well.

16

The word “just” has no proper function in these sentences:

There is nothing “mere” about abstractions.

And yes, God is an abstraction. What is this, kindergarten? Oh :smack:, it’s the Straight Dope, the other place where so many people insist that “God” either be as described to kindergartners (complete with semitranslucent beard) or else is “not real”…

Oh OK dammit, yes I know the world is well-packed with theists who also harbor such beliefs. There are historical sociological reasons for that, of which pretty much everyone on this board should be well aware. (Centuries of compulsory religion, anyone?). You would think the presence of more than a half-dozen folks who are apparently lucid clear-thinking non-foolish people using the word “God” non-ironically would be enough to get such folks to realize we are discussing an abstraction and not a ‘person’ with a physical matter-and-energy presence, wouldn’t you?

Oh OK dammit (II): Personal history of compulsory religion and personal experience growing up with it being shoved down one’s throat / shunned or punished for not giving lipservice to the kindergarten Skygod / too many arguments with annoying unthinking theists who do assert the EasterBunny version => being in a state of reaction to it. In some cases downright traumatized by religion. I can understand that too.
I am still quite amazed at the number of atheists on this board who are so firmly uninterested in understanding what “God” means to those of us who do refer to an abstraction when we use the term, and who are so universal in their condemnation of anyone who does so as deluded and so forth.

17

To me, there are two kinds of “God”. One is something that created the universe, set things loose, and then sits back. He does not interact with the world or answer peoples prayers, and it is not possible to figure out what he does or does not want. It doesn’t matter whether that kind of God exists or not. Ultimately people need to look inwards and decide on their own whether there is a purpose in life.

The second kind of God takes a direct part in the events of the world. He answers people prayers and it is possible to figure out what does and does not please him. That kind of God is what leads people to kill each other over what kinds of hats to wear, what day of the week is Holy, when Easter comes, what kinds of food can be eaten, and other adminstrivia. It matters not only whether that God exists, it also matters which of the many Gods people believe in exists.

18

(But if we’re going to preserve God, should we use vinegar, salt, or formalin?)

19

  1. I’m certain it’s not possible to reduce god to just an idea in any personally useful sense - it would just boil down to: something that other people believe in.

  2. Even if you could, nobody would bother “worshipping” that god, they’d all prefer either a god that claims to exist & be useful, or get rid of god completely.

  3. We don’t need god to be inspired, learn or cherish. And I don’t see any use for worship of gods, existing or not.

20

So what kind of abstraction is your God? Does it take part in the day to day activities of the world, did it direct evolution, did it set forth laws that you can follow, is it possible to perceive what it wants, can it change what will happen, will your belief in it change what happens to you after you die?