I know that it is an old German heraldic symbol, and was used by Hitler. But does it have the same overtones as the swastika? I haven’t really seen it that much, so I have a pretty neutral reaction, but looking about on the web sends mixed messages (most of the sites I looked at are about the history, some are about neo-nazis, and I know I’ve seen it on skater-punk clothing).
So what does it signify to you?
To me it signifies the German Empire, particulary during WW1, and it’s military in particular.
It was also a german medal that was like a good conduct medal. Everyone got one so it was pretty worthless.
Which is pretty neutral in my eyes.
The fact that the Modern German miltiary still uses the Iron Cross as their symbol speaks volumes, because they are generally very finicky about anything that seems nazi. Germany is a country that censors or bans video games and movies that have Swastikas in them, regardless of context.
I did not know that. One learns new things every day!
To me it walks a fine line, not for what it is but how it is used. Some groups use it as a replacement for the swastika. They can get away with wearing it when wearing a swastika would cause problems.
The thing is, I bought a lovely vinyl jacket which has an iron cross armband. Now, I mostly bought it for my own private…uh, entertainment, but I was wondering whether it would be prudent to wear in public. Fortunately, the armband is removable (it looks pretty dumb anyway, since it’s way larger around than my arm and just kind of flops around). So anyway, I didn’t want to commit some sort of incredibly tasteless faux pas, and teh internets just weren’t alleviating my concern.
For example (see below cockpit).
Now that sounds interesting. You could work the whole German military motif into your “entertainment”.
That reminds me of the Nazi boots I have. I really love them, but so rarely get a chance to wear them.
sighs wistfully
All I’m lacking is a proper military hat. So hard to find something that matches red and black vinyl that isn’t Russian.
Don’t it symbolize the older Second Reich?
It’s always brought to my mind WW1 rather than 2, and as I’m a lot more sympathetic to Germany re WW1 (I think they were on fairly even moral ground with everyone else involved in the conflict) so it’s a fairly neutral symbol for me.
I always thought it was the symbol of the Tuetonic Knights, adapted by the German Nation.
This is much closer to the case. The Iron Cross is seen as representing “Germany” as distinct from “Nazi.” As mentioned earlier, it is prevalent in WWI imagery. Like all other symbols in german culture, the nazis co-opted the iron cross to serve their own ends. Thus, one can find iron crosses with swatikas and SS-runes super-imposed on them. Germany has had a devil of a time trying to reclaim this pre-nazi symbol because of the memories of old vets and the actions of the neo-nazis. I myself find it sort of weird to see an iron cross on the side of a modern jet fighter because I’m a history buff who’s used to seeing it in WWII imagery.
As a Jew, my emotional reaction is that it symbolizes WWI just like the other posters said. Besides knowing this intelectually, Yosemite Sam wore an Iron Cross and had one painted on his plane in a cartoon in which he portrayed a spike-helmeted WWI German.
I think that if I saw an Iron Cross on a vinyl ‘uniform’, I would assume that the wearer was attempting to evoke the the well organized hierarchy and strict discipline often associated with Germany, while carefully avoiding Nazi symbols.
I don’t know. I seem to be in the minority in considering it a bit dicey. It’s no swastika (few things are), but still, is any evocation of German militarism completely fun and harmless? Plus, it’s not like the iron cross symbol is unknown to racist skinheads. I could only find one semi-lame cite, though I didn’t spend much time looking. (I know, I know, that’s not exactly an Iron Cross, but still.)
Well again, it’s evocative of German militarism in and pre WW1, which was hardly unique to the country. It was pretty much a bit of bad luck (and being on the losing side) that cast them in the bad guy role in a war that was characterised by an extremely large helping of stupidity at the command level.
Hence it not really carrying more of a racist bent than any of the military insignia from other countries of the time.
Sal Ammoniac
What aspect of German history haven’t neo-Nazis tried to claim?
I sometimes see people wearing Sig runes, not because they’re neo-Nazis, but because they worship the Norse/Teutonic gods. Many are quite pissed that they can no longer display the symbols of Wotan’s lightning or Donnar’s hammer without being mistaken for racists.
I have a friend who has an Indian bracelet of amber and onyx beads. She is afraid to wear it in public because each bead has a swastika painted on it. I’m fairly certain that she is not a Nazi. The fact that her skin is roughly the color of a cup of Swiss Miss cocoa is a big clue. She can easily pass as an Indian immigrant. The swastika has been used in India for milennia. She can’t wear the bracelet because the Nazis tainted that symbol.
Like many American Jews, my last name is German. My father’s side of the family is Austrian. One of my fondest childhood memories is the time Dad took me to a German heritage festival. I looked at German art and traditional crafts. We listened to German music. I ate sausage until I threw up. I’ve got Hebrew National knockwurst in the freezer right now. Mom, Dad, and Bubby spoke Yiddish- a dialect of German. My father loves opera and folk music. His collection includes plenty of German music.
Germany is a part of my heritage. Germany is much more than Nazis. I refuse to let the Nazis take away my heritage.
BTW-
Giant Spongess If you’re going to make a post about your sick desire to wear some perverse uniform for sexual gratification, you could at least have the decency to provide pictures.
I agree.
It depends on the context. If I saw someone with an Iron Cross on the back of his car, I’d assume he likes Harley Davidsons and the cross says ‘Orange County Cycles’ or whatever in it. If I saw it on the back of a denim jacket, I’d also think ‘Harley’. If I saw it being worn by a skinhead, I’d definitely see it as a racist symbol.
If I were to see a woman wearing one on an armband on a vinyl jacket? Armbands definitely remind me of the Nazis. That there’s an iron cross on the armband instead of a swastika wouldn’t really matter to me. It’s the armband that does it. I’d probably assume she was either into B&D and wanted people to know it, or that she was on her way to a costume party.
Just wanted to pop in and say that when I was working in video game localization, due to Germany’s ban on Nazi material, any of our games that were set in WWII had to be retooled to use the iron cross rather than the swastika–so in Germany, it definitely signifies Germany rather than the Third Reich.
Bwahahahaa…okay.
The aforementioned armband.
A better shot.
The thing is too long for my dinky webcam to capture its true glory.
That outfit makes it pretty clear that you’re roleplaying an authoritarian archetype that comes with a cool accent, rather than endorsing any kind of bigotry. If you carry the riding crop shown in the background, there can be no mistaking your intentions.
I am however, horribly disappointed that the pictures are worksafe.
