What if I tell you that the main company making dice for the last 400 years has been making weighted dice that almost exclusively roll sixes?
It isn’t a case of disagreeing, you just haven’t made a case for a claim.
Nor am I, some cultural, religious, ethnic or national groups are worse than others I’m sure. It cannot be any other way.
Oh well, I’m sure that makes the immigrants feel so much better.
Based on your comments here I’m not convinced you are well versed in what the “UK” thinks.
So you aren’t going to argue with the figures I provided in my survey I assume? You accept them as accurate?
Also, “waaay too low” compared to what? to when? to which other country? There are absolutely no comparisons or conclusions to be made from the article you posted other than “sterotypical opinions of other groups exists”. Which we already knew.
Well, I seem to be more aligned with the data in knowing the amount of racists in the UK than an actual UK person.
So are you , Novelty_Bobble, saying you do not think the UK has a significant population of racists? Not sincere racists (whatever the fuck that means), not other weasel word racists, but just a lot of White people who think their own race is superior to others, even if it’s just a vague intuition they have?
Sure. I just don’t think they say what you seem to think they say as regards to actual racism, vs just views on immigration.
Compared to my perceptions of the UK. But I’m happy to believe the data and adjust my thinking that the UK may not be as racist as I, a PoC, perceived when there (while still being very racist).
Did I say it should?
Next time, don’t assume.
It’s racist to reduce an entire ethnicity to “people who do X jobs”, as in the joke I saw.
I’m sorry, are you not simultaneously participating in the Critical Race Theory thread? What the fuck are you doing in it without knowing one of the core tenets of the theory? Or was that just a completely disingenuous question?
Any place where people are too afraid to talk about something as essential as racism with their own friends is a culture of fear.
One of the biggest political issues of your life, one side of the issue puts out a poster like that, you acknowledge that it’s racist, that side wins the issue, and yet you’re still standing there telling me the UK has very little racism?
Are you serious with this?
What actually was this joke? Seems pointless to talk about it based off your vague memory.
You mean the “What is Critical Race Theory?” thread. I originally clicked on it because I was hoping to find out what Critical Race Theory is. And I still don’t have a good idea. So yes it’s a serious question. WTF is Whiteness as something that can hold an opinion on anything?
I know there are racist people in the UK. I would have said it was mostly poor people and older people, who have little power. The Brexit referendum was a rare chance to have a say for many poorer people, and racism was certainly not the only factor driving it. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe the elite just hide it better. And I don’t think racism is technically the correct term for objecting to Muslim immigrants specifically, but it’s all related.
A vague memory is all I have from something that happened 12-15 years ago - it was someone’s standup set, and they said something about a Polish friend and “actually, I mean the gardener” and there was much laughter.
BUT like I said, completely besides the fucking point - you think miniscule dissection of one half-remembered joke is going to distract from the larger point you already illustrated yourself, of casual stereotyping of Eastern Europeans as mainly labourers? A racist stereotype so well-worn it has its own damn wiki page?
< waits for the complaints of “But that article doesn’t mention gardeners” and also “Well, actually, plumbing is a skilled trade…” as if lazy stereotypers cared about accuracy >
Are you just expecting to get spoon-fed the answers, without doing the least bit of research yourself? But still feel like you can tell PoCs what is and isn’t racism?
Firstly - serious questions don’t begin with “What the fuck”, mate.
Secondly - here, have a read: Whiteness Studies
Thirdly - “Whiteness’ opinion” is a metaphor, which fully parsed out would be “The opinions of those members of species Homo sapiens who partake as positive beneficiaries in that social system known as white privilege.”
Leaving aside the classist and ageist aspects of that statement - which age demographic decided Brexit, again?
You think, say, Prince Philip is “hiding it better”?
Well, you think wrong. It is.
I guess I’m just confused over the point you are trying to make. You cite an article that quotes some figures about racist attitudes that some people have. I have not challenged those figures and have absolutely no doubt that to some degree, racist and prejudiced attitudes of all types exist. Just as they do in all countries in the world. (let’s set aside for a moment that there is no other information given in that article as to the direction of that prejudice nor the prevalence of ethnicities doing the discrimination, holding the stereotypical views or enacting the prejudicial activities)
You seem to be drawing conclusions from that article and your personal experience that the UK is worse than South Africa or USA, and seemed to be implying that the UK was pretty bad overall. I am not convinced by the evidence you have put forward that that is indeed the case.
I have provided another cite (literally the first one that came up) that gives some global context with regards to how people treat and welcome immigrants of various ethnicities. Not a perfect survey but certainly it is relevant for some given value of “racism” or at least “prejudiced attitudes”
Here’s another one, again literally the first of the search pile for “Global Racism Survey”. Note who is at the top and then note where the USA and UK stand.
Here’s another
So…I don’t know where we go from here.
If you think I’m claiming the UK is perfect and free from prejudice of all types then you have sorely misunderstood me. It exists, it is pernicious and is being tackled. The country is in a different place from, say, the days of my childhood. It is getting better and better, certainly less racist and prejudiced than previous decades. Still things to do? of course. Same for every country.
However, do I think it is at a fairly low level compared to other countries? Yes, and my data seems to bear me out (as does my own anecdotal experience).
You think otherwise, fine. Convince me and show your working.
No, I’m not saying that. But I suspect that the concept of racial superiority is not confined only to white people either and is likely present in significant proportions for other ethnicities and cultures. Humans being humans and all that (and BTW the article you cite gives no breakdown of the figures in terms of demographics or ethnicity, not that I can find anyway)
FWIW by far the most blatant, egregious and memorable examples of racism I’ve encountered have been anti-Semitism from black and middle-eastern colleagues and breathtaking religious bigotry by Hindus. High-up business leaders as well. Amazing what people will own up to when their tongues are loosened by expense account booze.
In any case the concept of “significant” is pretty malleable and takes us back to your initial point that I pushed back against. “Significant” in comparison to which other country? which other time?
My impression of the UK is that it isn’t very racist in global terms and is generally getting better and better with plenty still to do.
This is just bizarre, weren’t you just saying the exact opposite when I presented a cite on attitudes to immigration? Weren’t you suggesting that it is not, in fact, “racism”.
Yes, In fact you said in response to table 2.
and when I challenged you on that and asked why it got a pass in South Africa you said
So…is objection to immigration of certain ethnicities racism or not?
Again, just like I said to DemonTree - no, read what I actually wrote, this is only half-right.
And no, I was not posting that cite to make numerical comparisons between the UK and SA, only to point out to DemonTree that their experience that vey few people in the UK are racist was an outlier, and didn’t match the general state.
Note the actual question, and then have a good, hard think why in South Africa, the reason for such a high percentage answer to “How big of a problem is racial discrimination in the country where you live?” is NOT “because we’re all a bunch of racists”, but rather a one-word answer, starts with “A”, tip of my tongue…
Same-same for your second survey - “61.8% of people said they had witnessed or experienced some form of racism.” What a fucking surprise!
Possibly some better surveys, eh?
No, your biased reading of surveys bears this out.
What, exactly, is your anecdotal experience of South Africa?
No doubt. Besides the point - the question wasn’t “Are White people more racist than every other group?”.
Did I? I don’t believe I mentioned Muslims at all.
Let’s not kid ourselves, here - British objection to Muslim immigration goes hand-in-hand with the Brownness of those same Muslims. The objection to Muslims is an objection to Brownness. Anyone who says different is bullshitting.
Yes.
But South African xenophobic objection is not primarily or largely objection to other ethnicities. Hell, some of the “foreigners” from the immediate neighbouring countries are from the same tribes as the South Africans objecting to them.
Like I said, different perceptions of ethnicity mean that survey is not saying what you think it is.
OK, do you think the UK is a more racist country than the USA or South Africa.
If that was not a claim you were making we can end the diversion right there.
I think the UK’s more racist than South Africa. I also think the USA is more racist than South Africa. I have no firm opinion on whether the USA or the UK is the more racist of the two, not having spent anywhere near as much time in the USA as I have in the UK, or in as much of it (admittedly, only in England and Wales though. So if Scotland is some world-beating kind of bastion of racial harmony, do tell), but my suspicion is the USA is more racist.
There, I answered your question. Care to answer mine?
OK, then if you want to back that up with data for comparison I’d be happy to take a look. Until then it is anecdote and assertion.
None, and if I had any it would and should be overridden by better data and surveys.
Whiteness calls it “anecdote and assertion”, we call it naming our own reality.
You’ve already tried “data” and I already pointed out how flawed it was in context. But are you going to adjust your thinking? Somehow, I doubt it.
Well, then your opinion is irrelevant to me. I’ve experienced both, and as a PoC. You’ve experienced one. And you think some numbers in obviously flawed surveys (where you have thus far skipped merrily past addressing the flaws pointed out, I’ll note) trump that lack of experience? Naah, I don’t think so. Homey don’t play that.
Feel free to call it what you want. Doesn’t change the fact that if you really want to know what is going on, at some point you have to deal with the facts as best you can describe them.
Anecdote and assertion won’t cut it.
Flawed they may be (as all studies are) but that does not make them useless. My thinking is constantly under review on pretty much everything.
And let’s remember that I’m not the one making a claim here. You stated that the UK is more racist than South Africa, I said you hadn’t made your case and you still haven’t. You’ve not tried any data at all. Your thinking is blissfully untroubled by anything approaching an empirical fact and you dismiss what data is presented that may be evidence against your claim.
From what I can see, against your claim is data plus anecdote (that I don’t put any weight on).
For your claim you have anecdote (that I don’t put any weight on) and assertion (which is worthless)
You make the claim, you bring the data, give your claim some weight if you can.
Even if you dismiss all the surveys and data I’ve cited you as fatally flawed and worthless, all you are left with is nothing but anecdote and assertion, which does not a sound argument make.
You think the UK is more racist that South Africa. That’s where your argument starts and ends. An unsupported opinion. Do you any data that backs up your claim?
Funny. I would think if you wanted to know “what was going on” in terms of racism, “at some point” you’d have to listen to the experiences of the people who experience racism.
Yes, it very much does.
I don’t care about your opinion on it. I’ve made my case to my satisfaction.
There is no data on “comparative racism” that isn’t critically flawed like your examples. At least none that I could find. The studies have not been done.
What anecdote? All I’ve seen is admission that people objecting to the comparison have no actual basis on which to base that objection, and especially no experience of one side of the comparison. There’s no “anecdote” there.
The data, as repeatedly pointed out, is useless garbage.
And I don’t care what you do or don’t give weight to. All social experience is narrative, you can try and drown out true stories with the obviously massaged stats you prefer, but that’s not going to work forever.
And continued failure to address the actual flaws in your piss-poor “surveys”, duly noted. Merely noting that they “may be flawed” (nice weasel-word, that “may”) is not addressing them at all.
All studies are flawed, anything based on data collection is flawed, anything devised or conceived of by the human intellect is flawed. just like all scientific models are wrong but some are useful.
You are picking up on some flaws and discounting everything that is said as a result. OK, good luck with that.
But at the same time you are holding up anecdote as fact. Anecdote that is remembered, filtered and reported by fallible and partial human beings. That is the bedrock on which you are basing your (still) unsupported claim. I don’t find it convincing.
There was a thread about the death of James Randi, your approach is so, so reminiscent of myriad diviners, astrologers and mediums who rely on anecdote and cannot be swayed no matter evidence is put before them.
Data is nothing without purpose. Since this data is presented as being about relative racism, yet is so very obviously flawed in assessing that, it is completely useless for purpose.
That you think my dismissing bad data makes me akin to flim-flam artists is laughable. It makes me a better scientist and skeptic than someone who thinks those surveys are meaningful.
And anecdotes are facts. And hence data. And your much-prized survey data is also collected, filtered, and oh so very much massaged by “fallible and partial human beings”. So yeah, until the robots take over, anecdote in social fields very much is data.