Is the military really that bad?

[Monty]

On what do you base that opinion?

[ImaginalDisc]

Look at Sargeant Bandamin’s case. He’s served a decade in the Army, and he eventually sdecided to apply for C.O. status, through channels, apealing to military justice. The end results: fifteen month scentence and a dishonorable discharge. IMHO, that sucks.

[What_Exit]

@ImaginalDisc

jrfranchi,

Yes, I think that fighting to keep the union together was most definately evil. So is slavery. Slavery was not the only issue in the American Civil War. There was the also the issue of state’s rights, which had been unsettled since inclusion of the ninth and tenth ammendments. The Civil War laid that issue to rest with the fourteenth amendment. Neither side was really right there. The South foguht a war to perpetuate a way of life that depended on slavery, and incidentally hurt the South’s economy as well, and the North fought to deny the South the freedom to chose their own form of government. They wanted to leave the nation, and form their own. That’s very much like what the American revoltion was about. By the reasoning you seem to suggest, if the South was the black hat in the American Civil War, then it follows that the colonies were the Black Hats in the American revolution (remebe that slavery was a vital part of the colonies), and I think that’s oversimplification, at best.

It’s my opinion, if you’ve turned over a rock and found a perfect moral guidline to wipe away all confusion, subjectivity and doubt in discourse, history and politics, I encourage you to share it. Meanwhile, get to have an opinion, and so do you.

Earlier I said that sometime people do the wrong thing for the right reasons. America’s involvement in South Korea is an example of doing the right thing, for the wrong reasons.

As for fighting for freedom, there are times when it’s necessary, but if I were to believe everything I’m told, those occasions are incessant. Not every provocation is a threat to liberty. It is a soldier’s duty to fight every war they are commanded to. It is a citizens privilage to take up arm and defend liberty when they percieve it has been threatened.

King Leonidas’s 300 died defening liberty at Thermopylae. They were soldiers who had been trained from early childhood warfare, and they were arguably the best soldiers at the time. However, 6000 Thespian citizen-soliders also held the pass along side them, and willingly died to defend the liberty of their home city-state, and by extension, all the Hellenic people. The Spartans did what they were told. The Thespians chose to sacrifice their lives for others. I respect both groups equally. I do not respect the spartans more for having been professional soldiers.

when liberty is genuinely in jeopordy, I think that a well regulated milita can percieve and address that issue.

A well regulated militia cannot fly combat jets, run naval vessels and use the advance technologies we currently have.
In addition to being a pacifist, you seem to live in a different time. Today’s military is a lot more than marching and aiming a gun.
From your comments on the civil war, you seem to think that revolts are good for humanity.
From your reply on Korea, I have to believe you don’t think stopping the spread of dictorial communism was a good thing.
You still blame the military itself rather than the policy makers.
The US military is a very powerful tool. If it was the self guided force you seem to think of it as then Patton would have led an Army against the USSR as General Douglas MacArthur consolidate China, Indo-China and the eastern extents of the USSR.
General Schwarzkopf never would have halted after 3 days of total victory in the first Iraq war.
Somewhere in our 200+ year history there would have been a serious attempt at a military coup.

Please do a better job in defining the evil of the US Military and not just a handful on anecdotes.

Jim

[ImaginalDisc]

Re: Militia. You make the case that many duities require detailed and expsnive training, and is most expediently handled by highly trained professionals. I agree. However, those people are not the overwhelming majority of Military personnel. Most personnel have loegistical, clerical, or combat duties which can be fulfilled by a militia.

Re: Revolution. Earlier, I discussed the Cuban revolution. I did not paint it in a positive light. I was pointing out that the South did not fight the Civil was because the South was bad, but that the South fought the war for reasons. Everyone’s got a reason to fight. I was not comparing the South’s position in the American Revolution to legitmize the South, I was doing to in order to cast dobut on your position that it was bad. the American Civil War was fought for complicated reasons.

Re: I agree that the Military is a powerful tool. It does not set its own policies, but it is an organization that has its own merits and demerits. I’m making the case that some of the demerits include such diverse elements as unjust treatment of soldiers, and over spending.

[What_Exit]

@ImaginalDisc

Re: Militia. You make the case that many duities require detailed and expsnive training, and is most expediently handled by highly trained professionals. I agree. However, those people are not the overwhelming majority of Military personnel. Most personnel have loegistical, clerical, or combat duties which can be fulfilled by a militia.

Re: Revolution. Earlier, I discussed the Cuban revolution. I did not paint it in a positive light. I was pointing out that the South did not fight the Civil was because the South was bad, but that the South fought the war for reasons. Everyone’s got a reason to fight. I was not comparing the South’s position in the American Revolution to legitmize the South, I was doing to in order to cast dobut on your position that it was bad. the American Civil War was fought for complicated reasons.

Re: I agree that the Military is a powerful tool. It does not set its own policies, but it is an organization that has its own merits and demerits. I’m making the case that some of the demerits include such diverse elements as unjust treatment of soldiers, and over spending.

Maybe a fundamental difference in the way we think. The South was evil for maintaining it economic system through human slavery. To me it is a Black & White issue. South was rebels against the Union and the Slavers. North was not Saints but overall a force for Good.

Jim

[ImaginalDisc]

The South was evil for perpetuating human slavery? Agree. The Southern states did not have a legal basis for the claim that they had the right to leave the union? No. In warring against the southern states, the union took a stance on both issues.

[Monty]

@ImaginalDisc

Look at Sargeant Bandamin’s case. He’s served a decade in the Army, and he eventually sdecided to apply for C.O. status, through channels, apealing to military justice. The end results: fifteen month scentence and a dishonorable discharge. IMHO, that sucks.

He wasn’t sentenced for being a Conscientious Objector. He was punished for actively breaking a particular law. It is not illegal to be a Conscientious Objector, not even in our military, not even how much you want to pretend that’s what he was sentenced for.

[ImaginalDisc]

I would contend that he was scentenced for being a C.O., and that the charges he was convicted on served a legal fiction. IMHO. Punishing someone for not killing is absurd.

[Monty]

I really don’t care if you want to lie to yourself about it. The simple fact of the matter is that he was sentenced for a particular crime he actually did commit.

[Gala_Matrix_Fire]

Regarding military versus civilian suicides, here are two anecdotes from Chuck Shepherd’s News of the Weird that really don’t prove anything, but are interesting:

1994 – A Philadelphia Inquirer analysis in December questioned military rulings that suicide was the cause of at least 40 recent deaths of U.S. servicemen. The newspaper quoted former military investigators who said they were “stunned” or “astonished” at how shoddy some of the 40 investigations were, and how the military often calls hard-to-solve cases suicides just to close them out. In one case, a military policeman’s death was ruled a suicide two days after he was found shot to death in the head with his hat stuffed in his mouth, his handcuffs attached to his wrists, his holster wrapped around his ankles, and a car radio cable tied around his neck.

1995 – In January, months of investigative work by the Warren (Ohio) Tribune-Chronicle resulted in murder charges being filed against a man for a 1978 murder that had been officially reported as a suicide by county coroner Joseph A. Sudimack, who had retired in 1987. Still being investigated are several other of Sudimack’s “suicide” determinations, including one case of a man who was shot and run over by a bulldozer; another of a man who was found hanged, on his knees, with toilet paper stuffed in his mouth; and another of a man who died of carbon monoxide poisoning from an inoperable lawn mower.

And on another note, my own personal opinion is that no, the military is not that bad. Way back when I was a college student, I thought that the military was the embodiment of evil and that every member of it was either a brainwashed pawn or unabashedly sadistic. I was mortally insulted when someone suggested I join the military after graduating. Ironically, I enlisted about four years later and feel completely different about the military now. I met a much better quality of person in the Army than I did in college, and keep in touch dozens of them, whereas I keep in touch with nobody at all from college.

Really, now, the military does not start wars. It doesn’t even pressure politicians to start wars. If you don’t like war, be a little more careful about who you vote for.

Undoubtedly the military seems really mean and intimidating to weak little people who have never been spoken harshly to. But military people are good people. It makes me cringe that so many people seem to prefer to see soldiers killed than civilians. sigh

[Linty_Fresh]

@ImaginalDisc

Re: Militia. You make the case that many duities require detailed and expsnive training, and is most expediently handled by highly trained professionals. I agree. However, those people are not the overwhelming majority of Military personnel. Most personnel have loegistical, clerical, or combat duties which can be fulfilled by a militia.

So let me see if I’ve got this straight. The military is evil, and therefore we should hand things over to the militia? The frigging militia?? Who exactly do you think signs up for this party, Imaginal? Look, just trust me on this. We’re better off relying on the military for this sort of thing, not the militia. Take my word for it.

Re: Revolution. Earlier, I discussed the Cuban revolution. I did not paint it in a positive light. I was pointing out that the South did not fight the Civil was because the South was bad, but that the South fought the war for reasons. Everyone’s got a reason to fight. I was not comparing the South’s position in the American Revolution to legitmize the South, I was doing to in order to cast dobut on your position that it was bad. the American Civil War was fought for complicated reasons.

A non sequitor if I ever heard one. Everybody fights wars for complicated reasons. Hitler fought for complicated reasons, and so did Pol Pot. What do complicated reasons have to do with the justness of a war?

When everyone and their kid brother in an entire nation takes up he fight, that is not the same thing as a very small, self selecting minorty taking up the fight. It’s a horse of a different color. Comparing the WWII military, which either included or was wholeheartedly supported by the entire population, to the modern military is comparing two very unlike things.

We do not owe victory to a handful of generals, and a core of hard boiled roughnecks, we owe that victory to an entire generation of people.

I don’t know what this means. You seem to be saying that the military was just a minor player among the allied powers when you compare them against the civilians on the home front. Is that what you’re saying? 'Cause if it is, then yeah, knowing that you’re supported back home is a great lift for the foot soldier. But you know something? I think you at least have to credit the military for the assist in getting rid of Hitler. I’m pretty sure the civilians who lived through those days would agree.

Aw, hell, what am I saying? Imaginal, this is how war works. You hand a bunch of trained people rifles and bombs and grenades and tanks and planes and stuff. Then you tell the people to go in against the enemies’ rifles and bombs and grenades and tanks and planes. Whoever kills more enemies and breaks more of their stuff eventually wins the war. That’s why we call it “war”! I don’t know what world you live in where tyrants and dictators quake in their boots thinking about grannies at home knitting mufflers for our boys, but it’s not this one.

It’s my opinion, if you’ve turned over a rock and found a perfect moral guidline to wipe away all confusion, subjectivity and doubt in discourse, history and politics, I encourage you to share it. Meanwhile, get to have an opinion, and so do you.

The difference between our opinions, Imaginal, is that my opinion comes from studying history, actually serving in the military and serving overseas. Although I never saw combat, I was trained by those who had and got to hear their side of things, both the good and the bad. Your opinion is based on your imagination about how awful and bloodthirsty the military is and how great it would be if everyone got to the battlefield and realized how stupid fighting is and then just gone home.

I don’t need a perfect moral guideline to call your opinion crap. It’s poorly thought out, based on faulty perception and ignorance, and expressed poorly. Your misunderstanding of the Civil War in particular is at best profound and at worst offensive to the memories of the men who fought to preserve the union.

In addition, your solutions to the problem are . . . well, they’re idiotic. I’m sorry, but I can’t put it any more nicely than that. You know nothing about military discipline, logistics, strategies, or the capabilities and makeup of militias. Your ideas would not only wouldn’t work, they would needlessly jeopardize the lives of untrained civilians who would have to contend with the professional militaries of the next dictatorship we’d have to fight.

And for what? What grand moral victory would we gain by doing things your way? You call the military evil, and then you run and hide behind pacifist rhetoric and dubious military history. I have yet to see you put forth one coherent argument about why the military is bad in and of itself.

[gigi]

It’s difficult and bewildering for me to imagine that people would choose take the energy and talent and one life they have and be willing to use it to cause the destruction of others’ lives. I know that not every soldier will kill someone but there is somewhere the willingness to kill or support the killing of others. There are worse things that being oppressed or imprisoned.

That is why I would be hard-pressed not to look as taken aback as the OP’s friend should one of my friends say they were joining the military. But I guess that’s unlikely since we’re a bunch of long-hair bleeding hearts.

[What_Exit]

@gigi

It’s difficult and bewildering for me to imagine that people would choose take the energy and talent and one life they have and be willing to use it to cause the destruction of others’ lives. I know that not every soldier will kill someone but there is somewhere the willingness to kill or support the killing of others. There are worse things that being oppressed or imprisoned.

That is why I would be hard-pressed not to look as taken aback as the OP’s friend should one of my friends say they were joining the military. But I guess that’s unlikely since we’re a bunch of long-hair bleeding hearts.

For what it is worth. I spent 4 years in the Navy and managed not just to avoid combat, but I avoided shooting a gun.
The first part was very simple the second part required a little basic Yeomanship on my part during boot camp. I was the Training PO and they really didn’t care about the pistol shooting.
Am I a pacifist? No, I believe war does serve a purpose and occasionally even a good purpose. I didn’t like the idea of having a loaded gun, I have always been a little afraid I would use it in the wrong situation.
I found my own way to serve my country.

Jim

[Monty]

@gigi

It’s difficult and bewildering for me to imagine that people would choose take the energy and talent and one life they have and be willing to use it to cause the destruction of others’ lives. I know that not every soldier will kill someone but there is somewhere the willingness to kill or support the killing of others. There are worse things that being oppressed or imprisoned.

That is why I would be hard-pressed not to look as taken aback as the OP’s friend should one of my friends say they were joining the military. But I guess that’s unlikely since we’re a bunch of long-hair bleeding hearts.

That’s a pretty inaccurate description of what the military is.

Some of us, if not most of us, who are in the military or who have been in the military see it not as causing the destruction of others’ lives but rather as a method of defending our country.

[HPL]

Well, I believe my question has been answered.

And it seems that, judging from the “yes” votes in this thread, opposition to the military tends to be almost entirely ideological, rather then practical or pragmatic.

I will say again that I’m aware that the military’s primary mission is to kill people and break things. I’ve studied military history(and generalized history). While I do believe that peaceful solutions should be sought, I’m not stupid enough to believe that’s always possible or preferable. Some wars need to be fought, and blind pacifism is just as bad in my mind as blind agression, because it gives the agressors of the world a free pass.

So I generally respect pacifists, but at times they seem a bit delusional or quxotic. Comments like “The American Military machine is fueled by blood and all it produces are corpses” only reinforces my previous impressions about hippies(“They say they want to save the earth, but all they do is smoke pot and smell bad”). So, no, the concept of the military doesn’t bother me.

I guess I was wondering if there was some hidden secret nobody talks about, like “The Military treats their employees worse then Wal-mart treats their employees” or “Military people get screwed out of their benefits” or “You get beaten in boot camp” or “MRE’s are PEOPLE!”. Assuming, of course, those were true.

So, far, I’ve seen very little of this.

[John_Stamos_Left_Ear]

Disclosure: Didn’t read the thread.

It’s pretty simple: Being in the military during times of peace is a pretty good deal - specialized training, great benefits, adequate pay.

When you are in the military during times of war, however, things get dicier, because while you might be able to accelerate your career path and make more money, you also have a higher risk of death and injury.

[Shagnasty]

@HPL

I guess I was wondering if there was some hidden secret nobody talks about, like “The Military treats their employees worse then Wal-mart treats their employees” or “Military people get screwed out of their benefits” or “You get beaten in boot camp” or “MRE’s are PEOPLE!”. Assuming, of course, those were true.

So, far, I’ve seen very little of this.

If you have known a number of people in the military your impressions should be pretty accurate. They will be much more regimented than a regular job. They will give you more responsibility than you can get in the civilian sector. Most people thinks that it sucks at times but I have never met a person that regretted being in the military overall. I know some, including my brother who joined the Marines out of force, who grew to appreciate it quickly. It can develop character and build on strengths that you weren’t aware of before. You have forced physical fitness at times. You may get to see many parts of the world. You won’t have to worry about finding a job, feeding yourself, or housing. They stakes are high but the death rate is still pretty low all things considered. The technology you get exposed to may be incredible. Most in the military develop a sense of purpose and pride they didn’t have before.

Tips:
The Air Force has the cushiest bases and somewhat more relaxed service with impressive technology.

The Marine Corp has one tough program but they tend to develop a big sense of accomplishment and pride. My brother, who was forced into the Marines only months before, insisted on wearing his dress uniform to his wedding.

The other two depend on whether you really like boats or not.

I often wonder what would have happened if I stayed in Air Force ROTC and became an officer. It would have been a pretty sweet deal.

[Monty]

@Shagnasty

I know some, including my brother who joined the Marines out of force, who grew to appreciate it quickly.

How does someone get forced to join the Marines?

[HPL]

@Monty

How does someone get forced to join the Marines?

I’m guessing peer/family pressure.

[Johanna]

What about queers in the military? Gays, lesbians, etc.?