Is the practice of Islam declining in the face of modernity?

Great Debates
1

I want to get a debate going here, I’ve come to a conclusion that the practice of the Islamic faith is going to face a similar situation that Christianity has faced, that it will be given token respect, but by and large will be seen as an institution of less and less relevance over time. Here are some examples,

[ul]
[li]People are now usually just doing the symbolic rituals to show they’re real ‘Muslims’ rather than believing in them (Great example being Egypt, very religious however very corrupt) For example wearing a Hijab, but wearing western clothes, which completely contradicts the rule of ‘Modesty’ for some.[/li][/ul]
[ul]
[li]More access to the outside world, which usually dilutes any dogmatism for a wide majority[/li][/ul]
[ul]Like most religions to most people, it’s inherently boring.
[/ul]

I think what we’re witnessing now is a high noon of Islamic conservatism/revivalism, although I don’t know how long it will last, my opinion is that usually having religion as part of the establishment will ultimately hollow out the religion and make it more irrelevant over time, this will become more apparent if and when more unstable parts of the Islamic world have better economies and stable political structures.

2

Monotheisms like Christianity and Islam don’t really mesh well with a modern world where it’s easy to learn that most people are of different religions that have just as much evidence for them, are believed in just as fervently, aren’t practically worse or better, and where destroying the competition isn’t practical. They don’t handle beliefs from outside their worldview well at all.

I expect both of them to continue to weaken and be replaced by either European style apatheism or by other religions better adapted to the modern world.

3

Christianity in the US only has token support and no real influence? :dubious:

4

America’s an aberration among industrialized countries when it comes to religion. And even in America Christianity is much weaker than it used to be.

5

I was going to ask the same question.

I don’t know about that. Maybe the number of Christians in the US is lower than it used to be, but I think the vociferous strain of Christianity in the US has more power and certainly more influence than ever.

6

I don’t know if the insincere performance of rituals is easily determined. Just because a girl wears jeans with her hijab doesn’t mean that she is not really practicing. Obviously it doesn’t contradict the rule of modesty for them.

On the other hand there are lots of people who fake being religious out of fear of social or legal repercussions that could even include disownment or violence. How many, and whether they are apostates or some kind of heterodox, is really, really hard to know. There are also people who act more religious for the social benefit, but again, how to count these people?

On the other other hand, there are lots of people for whom Islam has become a strong community marker, asking them to observe some rituals but otherwise not encouraging a lot of devotion. The amount of Muslims who try to fast for Ramadan in France is much higher than the amount who go to Mosque or who pray regularly. In Europe, lots of young Muslims assimilate very well, but others react conservatively.

The internet and globalization does promote questioning for lots of people, but others settle into niches that aren’t available to them in their towns and can actually get more extreme. Certainly, the religiosities of Islamic communities have not followed single trends in the last 150 years. In Egypt, to take your example, you would not have seen many hijabs on the street in 1950. Huda Shaarawi unveiling herself a few decades before was a huge deal. Things change.

If this were an academic setting I would challenge the idea that religion is boring by noting that religion as meaning making is something that everyone does all the time. In fact, because it is about assigning value and meaning, it is the only thing that we can legitimately say is inherently not boring. But I know that here and in most places, religion’s definition is limited to particular institutionalized forms, and people will (with good reason) bristle to be told they are always doing “religion” when a big part of their identity is based on the idea that they are not. So I will just say, yeah, practicing Islam traditionally is burdensome for lots of people. But my experience with ex-Muslims is that people don’t usually leave for that reason. And this is counterbalanced by the people for whom praying 5 times a day, fasting for Ramadan, and dressing in a certain way is something they derive real value from, even if they sometimes don’t want to wake up early.

The problem is that the way Islam is part of the establishment in many Muslim countries is not the way Christian churches were a part of European countries, and the close association of ‘secular’ states and religion in Muslim countries has actually seen growing religiosity.

Things could play out similar to what the OP is predicting, and there are signs that anti-religious movements are burgeoning in surprising places. But if it happens it probably won’t follow the Christian example.

7

What religions are those (better adapted to the modern world)? Japanese animism (Shinto) seems as good a candidate as any, it permeates the culture but is easy to ignore. What are your candidates?

8

Really. When in the 20th Century prior to the coming of the Moral Majority was Christianity stronger than it is now?

9

Far from declining, it’s the fastest growing religion in the world.

Religions last an awfully long time, longer than other human institutions, like countries. I’d be very hesitant to predict the death of any of them. (I’m also reminded of an old Reader’s Digest article, ca. 1970, that confidently asserted “women’s lib” was a dying fad.)

10

I’d go back even more. There was a wave of anti-religious popular speakers in the 19th century. Alternative religious movements were commonly seen. Franklin Pierce affirmed his oath of office on the constitution instead of the Bible without anybody raising a fuss AFAIK. Jefferson was accused of being an atheist but still got elected twice.

Of course, it’s hard to talk about what is strong and weak when the character of the debate changes so much. The US has always varied so much region to region, and over time. Evangelicals (especially Baptists) were once among the strongest supporters of separation between Church and State. You have Judeo-Christian imagery inserted into American civil religion during the Cold War, while the Supreme Court was banning prayer in public schools and the Jehovah’s Witnesses were leading a bunch of lawsuits on religious freedom.

It’s interesting to compare the JFK speech about his Catholicism and Romney’s speeches about his LDS faith. And JFK was talking to a group of ministers.

11

True, but I’m pretty sure it has peaked, for all time.

12

Most anything that’s not monotheistic, and doesn’t make too many claims about objective facts that can be easily disproven. Buddhism comes to mind.

13

Like others, I question the OP’s assumptions. Neither the practice of Christianity nor the practice of Islam is in decline worldwide, though that might be the case within certain countries. I am also doubtful about the “inherently boring” claim.

15

Reported.

16

Reported

17

Let’s start with this first item. What is your proof that this is so?

  1. Since when does “being corrupt” and “being religious” contradict each other?

  2. You need to demonstrate that these women wearing “western clothes” would have been wearing hijab 25 years ago, for example. You also have to demonstrate that wearing hijab is essential to Islam. (For example, are Catholic nuns who no longer wear habits any less religious than those of 50 years ago, when all of them did?)

18

There is good evidence for the first example. I’ve used an excerpt from a book I’ve read about the situation of piety and corruption.

As for the second, my point was that in the limits of the religiously conservative society, women have adapted freedoms such as wearing western style clothing, and also combining it with a hijab, which still demonstrates piety, but doesn’t necessarily means they believe sincerely in the restrictions placed upon them.

If you’re doubtful about the inheirently boring claim, then explain why such a low number of Iranians go to do daily prayers at the Mosque;

19

A psychological effect of Islam being the state religion. People tend to become more fervent, more determined to “uphold the faith” when they feel it is persecuted and threatened. When it’s written into the law on the other hand, well it’s hard to convince people a religion is threatened when it’s the law of the land. Just look at all the European counties when Christianity is officially the state religion but where most people are indifferent to it.

Whereas in for example America Christianity is explicitly not the law of the land, preachers go on and on constantly about how under siege Christianity is and their followers believe it.

Plus of course religion in power tends to make itself highly unpleasant, a lot worse than just “boring”.

20

But then Islam is the law of the land in Saudi Arabia. Why don’t we see the same effect in that country?

21

What makes you so certain that there’s not?

I’d add that in my own rather limited experience, Saudis who are well-educated are vastly more likely to be amongst what someone once charmingly described as “the hardcore religious types”.

Similarly, in Egypt, the Muslim brotherhood has always gotten it’s most fervent supporters from the educated, and usually frustrated middle class, not amongst the uneducated peasants.

People will notice most of the 911 hijackers weren’t the children of peasants and most had multiple degrees and spoke multiple languages.

The idea that people who are strongly religious are less likely to be so if they are educated is arrogant, stupid, and demonstrably false.

I’d certainly love to see anyone who insists that head over to BYU and start talking to the students there.