Is the practice of Islam declining in the face of modernity?

[Hector_St_Clare]

@shikinism

1. Culture in Indonesia is something very interesting because it’s something very open and dynamic. Since the first arrival of Islam in the 14th century people in Indonesia have been mixing everything up. Arabic preachers use traditional Hindu Wayang to teach Islam. In some places they don’t sacrifice cows during Eiid because of Hindu tradition. So Arab culture has been absorbed into the culture itself and altered to meet local values. I actually attended a wedding where The first is the Islamic wedding ceremony followed by the Javanese ceremony and the bride uses a modern wedding gown.

More religious people tend to be pro-Arab. Generally there is a slight dislike mostly because of the wide spread abuse of migrant workers in Saudi and because Arabic men are what is keeping the sex trade alive in certain parts of indonesia.

2. I’ve actually lived in Malaysia for 5 years. It’s basically like the UAE, the people don’t have any power but are kept well-fed thanks to government subsidies. The monarch that has the power to dissolve the entire parliament and the country is run by a dictator elected by the ruling party with virtually no opposition. The culture is very conservative. The reason there are no extremist is because the government controls Religion. The Friday prayer sermon for every mosque in the entire country is created by the Ministry of religion every week. So any Extremism is quickly put down by the government.

In Indonesia anyone can talk about religion. The Ministry have a bit of control. Most people follow either NU or Muhammadiyah which are moderate Islamic Organizations. But there are literally hundreds of small religious organizations each with their own following. So extremist groups are not tracked till they get to big. Bigger extremist groups like FPI are actually just criminals wearing turbans, they receive money from extortion and they bribe the police to allow them to keep doing things.

3. Believe it or not people here actually switch religions to get instant noodles in some places. Switching religion is completely legal. Poor people would say anything to get something. There are of course some paperwork it’s not that important. My friend is a catholic but his ID is still Buddhist. Currently, Islam is still seen as something good so even though they are not practicing they will still say they are Muslim, just like in Europe where people don’t go to church but still identify as Christians. I think the change will be gradual. Indonesian are very tolerant and open to other cultures. In the 1930’s and 1940’s the most popular religion was Kejawen (a mix of Islam, Hinduism and paganism). It also depends on the government because studies suggest social security affects religiousness in a population. If the government creates a good welfare system religion will decline. If not it will be Pakistan. Indonesia has a new President this year and also a new head for it’s anti-corruption committee so it’s fate is still hanging. IMHO, The people are becoming less religious nowadays because of economic development particularly the upper and middle class.

What you need to know that it’s a free country with a very different culture than the middle east. People are free here. you can wear what you want as long as it’s respectful. You won’t be fired from your job because you are an atheist. Women’s rights are respected. You won’t be raided by the police for having alcohol, unless its from the black market.

This generally accords with what I’m told from people who have lived in Indonesia / Malaysia. It is interesting, though, that Indonesia is much more heavily Muslim (in a demographic sense) than Malaysia: Malaysia is only about 60% Muslim, compared with 90% in Indonesia.

[Morgenstern]

@Der_Trihs

Monotheisms like Christianity and Islam don’t really mesh well with a modern world where it’s easy to learn that most people are of different religions that have just as much evidence for them, are believed in just as fervently, aren’t practically worse or better, and where destroying the competition isn’t practical. They don’t handle beliefs from outside their worldview well at all.

…

Wow, could you explain that to me please.

[Ibn_Warraq]

@shikinism

I’m currently living in Indonesia and from what i can see religious practice is declining. religious institutions are still thriving but the younger generation are less religious. The religious institutions here are mainly moderates that does not promote sharia law, jihad or intolerance. Extremism remains a threat but fortunately the police are handling quite well. Sectarian conflicts usually happen in less modernized places. In here the woman are educated, America is the new mecca and people are free to buy beer. In a few years the effect is surely going to show but that’s just my opinion.

My mother heard lots of people say that in Tehran in the early 1970s.

Don’t count on it.

Similarly Christianity in the US was vastly weaker in the 1960s(at least among white people) than in the 1980s or 1990s.

[Quartz]

@Ryan_Liam

But then Islam is the law of the land in Saudi Arabia. Why don’t we see the same effect in that country?

Is it not the case that in Saudi Arabia, other religions are persecuted?

[nani]

@Quartz

Is it not the case that in Saudi Arabia, other religions are persecuted?

Yes, and apostates are even more persecuted.

Saudi Arabia is a lot more varied (in good and bad ways) than people give it credit for, but I think that if the government were to actually reflect the ‘will of the people,’ it would become a more strict rather than freer place.

[Steken]

@Chief_Pedant

In general, a sound scientific education undermines all religions as a source of truth.

Cite?

@Hector_St_Clare

some crazy high percentage of Scandinavians apparently believes in the literal existence of elves.

Cite?

[Ryan_Liam]

@Ibn_Warraq

My mother heard lots of people say that in Tehran in the early 1970s.

Don’t count on it.

Similarly Christianity in the US was vastly weaker in the 1960s(at least among white people) than in the 1980s or 1990s.

Difference was Tehran was a dictatorship, whereas the dictatorship in Indonesia has gone and a democracy is in its place.

[Hector_St_Clare]

@Steken

Cite?

Cite?

54% of Icelanders, in 1998, believed in elves.

Why So Many Icelanders Still Believe In Invisible Elves

[tomndebb]

Even if we grant Iceland honorary Scandinavian membership, and even if 100% of Icelanders believe in elves, that hardly makes a belief in elves a “crazy high percentage” of Scandinavians. Iceland has about half the population of Oslo or Helsinki, a bit over half as many people as Copenhagen, and a third of the population of Stockholm, never mind the population of the rest of those nations.

[Chief_Pedant]

Originally Posted by Chief Pedant
“In general, a sound scientific education undermines all religions as a source of truth.”

@Steken

Cite?

Sure.

But you knew that. Maybe just busy?

From that particular cite (or ask your friendly neighborhood scientist)
"A survey of scientists who are members of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, conducted by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press in May and June 2009, finds that members of this group are, on the whole, much less religious than the general public.1 Indeed, the survey shows that scientists are roughly half as likely as the general public to believe in God or a higher power. According to the poll, just over half of scientists (51%) believe in some form of deity or higher power; specifically, 33% of scientists say they believe in God, while 18% believe in a universal spirit or higher power. By contrast, 95% of Americans believe in some form of deity or higher power, according to a survey of the general public conducted by the Pew Research Center in July 2006. "

And if you get into the various “just so” stories like reincarnation, creationism, miracles and the like, the ratio of a well-trained scientist who believes that versus a very religious person is even more divergent.

[andros]

Isn’t there something of a difference between “members of the American Association for the Advancement of Science” and people with “a sound scientific education?”

[Steken]

@Hector_St_Clare

54% of Icelanders, in 1998, believed in elves.

Why So Many Icelanders Still Believe In Invisible Elves - The Atlantic

@tomndebb

Even if we grant Iceland honorary Scandinavian membership, and even if 100% of Icelanders believe in elves, that hardly makes a belief in elves a “crazy high percentage” of Scandinavians. Iceland has about half the population of Oslo or Helsinki, a bit over half as many people as Copenhagen, and a third of the population of Stockholm, never mind the population of the rest of those nations.

Exactly this. Icelanders are not Scandinavians. Even if they were, they’d be a very, very small minority of Scandinavians. Took the words right out of my mouth, tomndebb.

@Chief_Pedant

From that particular cite (or ask your friendly neighborhood scientist) "A survey of scientists who are members of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, conducted by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press in May and June 2009, finds that members of this group are, on the whole, much less religious than the general public.1 Indeed, the survey shows that scientists are roughly half as likely as the general public to believe in God or a higher power. According to the poll, just over half of scientists (51%) believe in some form of deity or higher power; specifically, 33% of scientists say they believe in God, while 18% believe in a universal spirit or higher power. By contrast, 95% of Americans believe in some form of deity or higher power, according to a survey of the general public conducted by the Pew Research Center in July 2006. "

Thank you for the cite. But with andros, I must ask:

@andros

Isn’t there something of a difference between “members of the American Association for the Advancement of Science” and people with “a sound scientific education?”

Also, for what little it’s worth: My “friendly neighborhood scientist” recently converted to Islam, so me asking him wouldn’t help you one bit.

[Hector_St_Clare]

@Steken

Exactly this. Icelanders are not Scandinavians. Even if they were, they’d be a very, very small minority of Scandinavians. Took the words right out of my mouth, tomndebb.

Thank you for the cite. But with andros, I must ask:

Also, for what little it’s worth: My “friendly neighborhood scientist” recently converted to Islam, so me asking him wouldn’t help you one bit.

Correction accepted: I had thought the elf thing was typical of all Scandinavia, but I can’t find evidence for that, so I’ll concede it’s only an Icelandic quirk. I had no idea Icelanders are not considered Scandinavians, though.

[Steken]

@Hector_St_Clare

Correction accepted: I had thought the elf thing was typical of all Scandinavia, but I can’t find evidence for that, so I’ll concede it’s only an Icelandic quirk. I had no idea Icelanders are not considered Scandinavians, though.

No biggie. To be fair, I do not know what percentage of Scandinavians do believe in elves. I do know that different types of religious belief or loosely defined spirituality remain quite strong, despite widespread secularization. For example, from here:

If one examines data on Christian beliefs and practices, Sweden appears to be
among the most secularized nations in Western Europe. According to the 1995
World Values Survey, only 10% attend church as often as once a month and only
16% express confidence in the existence of a personal God. However, before we
propose Sweden as the vanguard of a secular future, it is significant that 46%
affirmed the existence of ‘some kind of spirit or life force’ and 18% said that they
simply did not know what to believe. Thus, looked at from the other end of the
distribution, one could say that ‘only’ 20% of Swedes reject God.

I don’t know about Norway. (Wild guess: Probably somewhat more traditionally religious - i.e. Christian - than Sweden?) As for Denmark, it seems as if religious belief - whether Christian or non-Christian - remained at roughly the same levels between 1990 and 2008. So it’s not like religious ideas are gone, or are necessarily going away.