See, the swastika is a very important symbol in my culture, too. It means “ultimate evil”. It’s very meaningful to us, and we have no intention of abandoning it.
I understand the religious origins of the swastika. However, when I see it, even in non-Nazi settings such as in Japan and Nepal, I think evil.
I honestly think it will take at least 3 more generations for the swastika, in the West, not to be seen primarily as evil. It will take the death of everyone who’s parents knew holocaust survivors were alive when they were alive. The great grandchildren of the people living now would be the first generation I would expect start the cultural shift.
On the question could Hitler become a revered figure? Napoleon lost, his war was brutal and costly in both treasure and lives. So, I don’t see it as farfetched that in 200 to 300 years Hitler could be seen as a German Hero.
So if you see this you think “evil”, even though its going the other way, is on a buddha and is not on a red background in a white circle?
Because I can tell the difference pretty easily…
Yup, pretty much. The swastika will stop being a symbol of evil when WW2 becomes the cultural equivalent of the French & Indian Wars, which will only happen when a majority of people do not remember people who fought in WW2 or died in the camps.
So, around the time of the first President who’s the child to a Millenial, or thereabouts.
Basically around the time China takes over.
Yeah, I lived there and recall seeing it many places, and it didn’t conjure up images of Hitler’s Reich, which proves that it’s a matter of context. Placing the swastika in the context of a shrine isn’t a problem; putting a black swastika on a red flag and posting it in front of a synagogue or a black baptist church is another matter entirely.
I have totally no right to comment on your culture, nor your symbology or anything else,
but I would lie to your indulgence to pick a slight nit if I may…
I’d be curious how, in your culture, before the holocaust, the Swastica was used to represent evil, and how it was an important symbol?
That’s not to say anything about how it’s regarded today, nor how it makes you feel.
I’d simply contend that in “your culture”, the Swastica was never the “representation of evil” - but rather the symbol of an evil and oppressing force.
It may well be a distinction without a difference - and if you wish to see it that way, then I would have little to say.
In years gone past, I used to think much the same way as you - after all, the Swastica i first experienced was the “evil” one. Having now lived for a time in a largely buddhist country my opinions shifted.
Hell, here we have a school called “Red Swastica” and my daughter’s school has a swastica on the front gate as part of the school logo.
I guess what I am trying to say - you should always and forever hate the evil - I just wonder if (or why?) the fact that “the evil” tried to appropriate a long standing good luck symbol as trumping all else?
I don’t agree with this idea.
For me - I won’t see any correlation between re-establishing the swastica as a symbol of good luck and rehabilitating the Nazis - actually I would think the reverse was at play.
Those that want to revel in Nazism, or in the “correctness” of the final solution WANT the Swastica to remain a symbol of evil - they don’t want it rehabilitated - once its rehabilitated it loses power to Nazis
Maybe start off smaller, like by rehabbing the 'stache; then move on to the swastika.
Don’t be so sure. For instance, my father-in-law visited Spain a few years ago so he could spit on the grave of Queen Isabella for exiling his ancestors in 1492.
It doesn’t pay to underestimate the tenacity of cultural memory.
I have always believed that there is little point in trying to predict what we are going to think and feel several centuries from now. And yet I cannot help feeling that this one is indeed farfetched.
Those people don’t believe that Nazism is evil. To them there is no contradiction between the auspicious intent of the symbol’s use in Hinduism for example and Hitler’s use.
Indeed, that’s one reason why the symbol was chosen by the Nazis, to associate positive connotations with Nazism, to appropriate the good meanings. And that’s exactly the opportunity they will take if there is a popular effort to rehabilitate the swastika as a symbol.
It exists, and is not all that uncommon, but it’s far from ‘ubiquitous’. I can think of a couple cases on visits to India or Nepal where I noticed swastikas.
Its very common on all kinds of shrines both buddhist and hindu and those are scattered everywhere in India, small street shrines in every city and town on almost every block. It’s there if you look for it and pay attention to the roadside shrines.
It’s not making war, even costly war, that is the cause for Hitler being reviled. Hitler instigated the Holocaust, Napoleon didn’t (despite what Ribbes claims about Haiti). 12 million non-combatants dead, that’s why Hitler is never getting rehabilitated.
For all his (many) faults, Napoleon was actually a very liberal ruler - he emancipated French Jews, for instance, and ended the last vestiges of feudalism. The Code Napoleon was a wonderful legal project.
Well, I lived in India for a couple of years and have visited many parts of it and, from my experience, the swastika is not infrequently seen.
Religious iconography is much more prevalent in India than any other country I’ve visited. Every Hindu house I’ve been in has its own house shrine, Hindu-owned shops and businesses have shrines (although they’re often behind the counter or out of view), auto-rickshaw drivers often have mini-shrines in their vehicles (often with gaudy flashing lights). It’s painted on walls, on calendars and other everyday items.
The most commonly seen religious symbol seen in India is, I would say, the Om symbol. Plenty of swastikas too, though.
Bonus: the Tibetan Dalai Lama with swastikas.
I think we’ve all been waiting for that, but especially the chicks. It’s been a long 70 years.
As an aside, here’s a darkly comical case of name appropriation and use of swastikas, which almost feels as if it could have come straight from The Onion.
In 2012 a clothes store opened in India with the name ‘HITLER’ and using a swastika as the dot on the I.
“Its owner says he did not know who Adolf Hitler was and the store is named after a business partner’s grandfather who was called Hitler for being strict.”
The store owner said:
“I didn’t know how much the name would disturb people…It was only when the store opened I learnt that Hitler had killed six million people.”
Interestingly, the photos in each of the above links have the swastika alignment differently. In one photo it’s at the Hindu orientation and in the other photo it’s at the 45 degree Nazi one.
Never is quite a long time. Djengis Khan has been rehabilitated and he killed millions in the most bestial of way. Attila the Hun is rehabilitated and his reputation used to be much worse that Hitler’s is now - he used to be called the Scourge of God. We have a poster here on SDMB who’s busy rehabilitating Tamerlane, another guy guilty of murdering millions in almost nihilistic rampages. In the USA I’ve been told it is somewhat fashionable in rich liberal circles to collect South American indigenous Indian sculptures – which in many instances depicts victims being tortured to death. Cato is rehabilitated, and he used to end all speeches with a call for genocide – eventually he got his way. Currently there’s a series running about Vikings which is rather popular – I remember reading about one Viking who was teased by his comrades for being soft, because he didn’t particular like cutting off the heads of children and putting them on a pikes. Pirates is another group of murdering bastards which have become romanticised. And Caesar of course, who went on a murdering rampage through a bunch of countries for no other reason than to quench his own political ambitions.
Hitler will have his day. First he’ll be forgotten, then he’ll be rehabilitated. In fact Hitler and The Nazis are already well on their way to becoming rehabilitated. In some countries it’s fashionable chick to dress up as Nazis, and there are all kinds of funny Nazi/Hitler pictures on the net and funny Nazi/Hitler videos on YouTube. I watched a Finnish Nazi movie a little while ago. Iron Sky – even though ironic, still chuck full of Nazi symbolic fetishism. This is not even going to take very long like it did for some of the others. A few decades more perhaps. Same with the Communists. Soviet Communistic and Maoist symbols are also widely used as fashion statements.
It can also be seen on the decoration on the Indian Embassy in London.
http://www.proswastika.org/news.php?extend.287.6
We do :eek:? I’m shocked, I am.
Not for the first time I’ll mention that my particular use of the handle derives not from any particular admiration, but rather mostly from a childhood fascination with ‘the mysterious orient.’ I just really liked the name when I was young - blame Christopher Marlowe. I’ve also used the handle Prester John in the past for similar reasons. It was kind of a coin flip I ended up with the former, rather than the latter on this message board.
As to the chap himself - other than jokes I think I’ve been pretty even-handed about his legacy. Impressive general, but bloody-minded tyrant who was pretty crap at the whole state-building thing ( at least in terms of posterity - it worked well enough while he lived ).
But to your main point, I really think Hitler stands alone. His particular brand of industrial genocide was so startling and modern enough to be so thoroughly documented by media, that I think the impact far, far outstrips someone like Attila the Hun. Attila was nothing more than an everyday “barbarian” warlord, not particularly better or worse than a Gaiseric or Alaric ( and a lot less worse than my namesake, really ). Hitler was something on an entirely different scale.
We’ll have to check back in 500 years when they thaw out our cryogenically preserved brains and implant us in our new android bodies. But I suspect little serious rehabilitation of his reputation as evil personified.