Is the US becoming a banana republic?

You’ve packed several major conceptual errors into this, so it’s worth taking it apart and baring the underlying context.

Detroit is a tragedy. No question. Nor is it singular. I could name dozens of other northeastern former industrial hubs of all sizes for which the same sad history has been at work. Detroit has the highest percentage of people living in poverty, but also in the top ten are Hartford, CT, Cleveland, Dayton, and Cincinnati, OH, Providence, RI, Buffalo, NY and, um, Rochester, NY.

Who gained from these cities’ falls? The South and the West. People starting moving out of the cold north for sunnier climate in large numbers starting in the 1950s. You can point to a multitude of reasons starting with air conditioning becoming widely available and making summer living bearable, the need to replace old industrial stock and the desire of companies to do so in less unionized areas, the move toward a service economy that lessened the dominance of industry and agriculture, and the lower living expenses in areas where you could build new rather than competing with decades of previously-owned houses.

Nothing in history suggests that any individual city or area in a country must always progress and prosper, in the same way that nothing in history suggests than any individual or family must progress and proper. As long as the entirely of the country prospers, the fate of subunits does not speak to the country as a whole. Singling out Detroit as anything other than an individual tragedy is the first major conceptual error.

If you look back at that era, in fact, you could make some predictions about the rise of the South but probably not do a good job of guessing which individual cities would come out on top. It’s impossible to know ahead of time who wins. You could make predictions about the North as well, but history might also fool you. As I said, New York hit bottom around 1975. The consensus was that the city was finished. It’s now on top again, even if filled with the same inequalities that people said doomed it 40 years ago. Washington, DC, was a gloomy slum outside of the gleaming government center. Today it’s gentrifying rapidly, a problem to some but a boon overall. When Boeing moved its headquarters to Chicago, somebody erected a billboard saying “Will the last person to leave Seattle please turn out the lights.” Today it’s the model city for the Internet age. San Francisco went from the Summer of Love to a haven for drugged-out homeless people. It’s problem now is literally so much success that people can’t afford to live there.

Not understanding that cities, as with everything from people to nations, have cycles of success and failure and that nobody knows what the next cycle will bring is the second major conceptual error. Detroit could come back. It offers cheap opportunity and that’s always a draw. It may not. We don’t know. But taking a slice out of a long cycle and using that slice to proclaim decline is always wrong.

The next major conceptual error is somewhat more subtle, especially to those not in the U.S., even if it’s already been mentioned in this thread. Detroit, the center city that gives the area its name, and the Detroit Metropolitan Area are two very different things, economically, politically, socially, and in every other way. The city has zero political power over those who live outside its boundaries. Today that is normally 60 to 90% of the total population. It is 80% for Metro Detroit. (The combined economic area of Detroit, eight other Michigan countries, and Windsor, Ontario had 5.7 million compared to Detroit’s 681,000. Which area you use for any given comparison should vary.) Although the center city gets all the headlines, it’s clear that a judgement about the area shouldn’t be made based on 20% of the population. Metro Detroit is a prosperous area, though certainly hit by the recession. Talking about “Detroit” as just the center city is basing your judgement on an obsolete but historically entrenched political entity. Most - but certainly not all - people think that a prosperous metro area requires a prosperous center city, but that is a huge political argument in its own right.

What you see in the headlines seldom reflects the total reality. If Detroit is anything, it is an outcome rather than a symptom, and an outcome from mistakes made in the 50s and 60s, exactly the period people keep insisting were better times. If you look back from prison at the great spending spree you had on stolen money can you really say those days were better? If you do, you’re just setting yourself up for future failure. Maybe some forces in the U.S. are making this mistake - the dismantlers, we might call them. But they have no chance of succeeding. And they are loudest now because they know this is the last short window they have before becoming an absolute minority and losing any hope of taking the country backwards.

Oh, the Walton heirs statistic is just a dramatic pointer, there is much more complete and compelling evidence that wealth is distributed unequally in the US. Here is a collection of charts that demonstrate the startling rise in wealth inequality in the US over the last few decades.

Your isolated data point from Sweden is just that, an isolated data point. The numbers are overwhelming, and clearly show rising wealth inequality. Now the question in your mind must be, at what point does the wealth inequality reach banana republic-hood in purely economic terms? I don’t think there is an established metric for that. But surely we’re close enough to it that any reasonable person must be alarmed. (I realize that the term “reasonable person” excludes many Dopers and almost all libertarians, but … I’m OK with that.)

The irony potential for this one is just off the charts. BOOM! Well, there goes another irony meter, and I just calibrated this one for the 'Dope too! :eek:

None. Zero. That is like asking at what temperature does a diagnosis of bubonic plague result? Fever is one symptom of bubonic plague, but not diagnostic and really one so incredibly minor and besides the point compared to everything else that would be happening as to be ignorable.

And you still haven’t answered my direct question: which countries do not show economic inequalities? If the average body temperature is 98.6, then running around yelling “OMG! Get him to a hospital! He has a temperature of almost 99!” is lunacy.

It’s not isolated. Every country in Europe that I listed had higher %'s than the US. Did you not understand the chart?

Feel free to add to it, btw. I think you’ll just confirm the correlation, but maybe not.

Again, I don’t contest the links numbers. I contest your conclusion that they point to the US heading towards being a “banana republic.”

My apologies, Septimus. In the post you cited, I incorrectly entered “40 million” when I should have entered “130 million”. Only thing I can figure is that I was thinking “40%” while typing it.

So it’s me who didn’t get his figures right. :o I apologize for the snark.

Well here is a chart that addresses the point I think you are making. It shows the world’s countries color-coded by Gini coefficient. The US is in roughly the middle of the chart, not as bad off as what are presumably the Original Banana Republics in South America, but with a higher Gini coefficient than any other industrialized nation. In fact, the US has a higher Gini coefficient than Nigeria, considered a hotbed of corruption and site of a lot of civil unrest over that.

The US is not a banana republic, as I stated in my original post. And the US is not YET a banana republic in purely economic terms … but we are clearly headed that way. And do we REALLY want to be stuck down there with all those high Gini coefficient countries in South America?

I’ll refer you to my original post in this thread, where I listed a number of factors that I thought might make a country a banana republic. On several of them, the US did not rank as a banana republic, and I said so. I said I thought one of the areas in which the US is most like a banana republic is economics. So, you’re barking up the wrong tree here.

Yes, I get it. The U.S. is not even on the road to becoming a banana republic except for economic inequality, which I contend is absolutely and utterly irrelevant in predicting whether a country is becoming a banana republic. You couldn’t have made a worse case if you were a libertarian. :slight_smile:

The Big Question on the Table - “Is the US becoming a banana republic?”

I think we’ve pretty much proved … Yes, it is.

“Is the U.S. a banana republic”? Rather clearly … No, it isn’t.

Wouldn’t you have to come up with some kind of facts, or evidence, to prove that?

Regards,
Shodan

Only for odd and idiosyncratic definitions of “banana republic” that are put forth by the couple of you who want to pretend that banana republic means something different than it means for every other speaker of the language.

Otherwise, you have merely “proved” that you are willing to abuse the language to make some point that makes no sense.

Well, we’ve already had 6 pages of it, wouldn’t you say?

Six pages of weird assertions, errors, abused language, and personal opinions hardly qualifies as facts or evidence.

When a five-year-old runs up repeatedly to the adult table and makes farting noises, it adds nothing to their conversation no matter how much he giggles.

Not at all. The fact that there is no definition of what is required for a Banana Republic to be one … and we’re left with 6 pages of 50% conviction, 50% counter-conviction and 100% guess-work or prejudice.

I didn’t initiate this thread so don’t accuse me of “abuse of the language” or tweeking of the definition. I say, with no guidelines there can be no abuse - but then again there can be no resolution other than what you want it to be. “Odd and idiosyncratic definitions” (in this case) don’t enter into it.

Not buying your notion that economic inequality is irrelevant to banana republichood. In fact, obtaining and maintaining control of wealth and power is what banana republics are all about, and the wealth inequality inevitably stems from the indifference of the people who seek wealth and power to the fate of the others in that society. You could make a strong element that seeking both wealth and power are the result of irrational subconscious motivations on the part of those who do so (to extremes) and I would agree with you there. But that’s what the game is all about, let there be no doubt about it.

And what are links to economic data, exactly?

er, post 297 should read, “You could make a strong argument …”

You are abusing the language, again.

There is very definitely a clear definition of what constitutes a banana republic. Pretending that one does not exist in order to excuse your complete lack of evidence in order to simply make silly claims is, itself an abuse of language.

Wikipedia:

Merriam-Webster

Oxford English Dictionary

Regardless whether one’s “definition” is based on O. Henry or on a more extended metaphor as indicted by the Wikipedia entry, we have a history of the word and a clear indication of how and why the expression came to be and has been used. What you are attempting is to simply say “here is a derogatory term, let’s apply it to the U.S.,” (pretty much the way that idiots on the Left fling around the term “fascism” and idiots on the Right fling around “communism” or “socialism”).