Is the US in decline?

The U.S. isn’t in decline it is being outgrown by other countries, though. Things won’t get worse for Americans over the next 50 years, despite the rantings of people obsessed with concepts like extreme trade protectionism, the end of all jobs in America and other things which are just internet hyperbole the most likely scenario is that 50 years from now America and other OECD countries will have dramatically improved quality of life compared to now. Technology is going to advance tremendously during that time.

I do wonder what is going to happen as China and India slowly catch up with the first world. I don’t expect that in 50 years time they will be caught up, in terms of standard of living or any of those measures. Their military power will probably be significantly improved.

People talk about the weaponization of space by the Chinese like they are getting ready to achieve some sort of advantage that once achieved no one else could ever match. The truth of the matter is we probably could have weaponized space during the Cold War, we didn’t because of the foreign policy implications. If a country did weaponize space, other countries would do the same. It’s just like the atom bomb, we created it but anyone who thought we now had a “super weapon” that made us untouchable was quite foolish. In very short time the Soviets had one too, that’s the way the world works. I’ll tie that in with the rare earth mineral fiasco. Yes, China can use their current monopoly of rare earths production to harass the economy of the world. However at the end of the day all that would happen is other countries would start producing rare earths again, end of story.

During the Cold War both the Soviet Union and the United States embraced their role as superpower. The leadership of both countries, throughout the period, thought and truly believed they were locked in a battle for dominance of the globe. Soviet leadership genuinely believed they could export communism to the entire globe, the United States genuinely feared it and fought against it.

With China things are a lot different. Our relationship with China, despite rocky issues, is far and away better than our relationship with the Soviet Union during the Cold War. While we can expect “economic clashes” to increase, at the end of the day we’re China’s best customer and we have shown no limit to how much we love buying their stuff. There’s too much money made off of the U.S.-Chinese relationship for us to enter into Cold War era types of relationship with the Chinese just because they are moving to be on par with us economically and militarily.

The other thing that is very different about China is it does not appear to be lead by ideologues who want to control the globe. The Chinese leadership appears very insular, with a strong desire to have freedom of action within its “sphere of influence” but little desire to become the next United States or even the next Soviet Union. The USSR was propping up regimes on the other side of the planet, at a true loss. The Chinese engage in trade with questionable regimes all over the planet, but from everything I have seen they reap material gain from the trade. Especially since often times they are the only people willing to trade with said countries. The Chinese aren’t interested in having client states in South America. What the Chinese seem to really want is enough deterrent power that any war against them would be hugely devastating for their enemies. Namely, they want to build up their military to the point that the United States would look at China and say “going up against it with them isn’t worth it.” I’d argue they are already there but Chinese leadership doesn’t agree. One of the big things for them is they want enough naval power that they can operate in spite of U.S. presence in the seas of Asia.

China wants to be a regional hegemon, and they want enough power that no outside entities like the United States can get “in their way” in Asia. Unlike the Soviet Union China has no desire to “spread” to cover the whole world. Chinese leadership isn’t very ideological even though it is still officially communist. Instead it is basically a group of technocrats who are all pretty much devoted to one thing: strengthening the stability of China and giving China free reign over its immediate neighbors.

From what I’ve seen, aside from Taiwan, this doesn’t imply China is out for conquest. China just wants to be able to more or less have Vietnam, South Korea, Japan, and other countries in the region “under its thumb” in all aspects of their relationship. As long as the United States has vast military resources it can deploy in the region the Chinese feel that they can’t quite “get there.”

India seems even less expansionist than China, and for all its problems it is the world’s single largest democracy.

Something I’d mention about both India and China, from my experiences with people from both countries, these aren’t people who see themselves on a trajectory of conflict with the United States. These are people who want their country to be like the United States, in terms of economic opportunity and quality of life. Neither country has a huge ideological population that is interested in becoming a world superpower.

In truth, I don’t know that the United States does either. If we weren’t already global policemen, I really doubt our population would sign off on us becoming such. It’s really just because the American public bought into the Cold War that our military and political leadership has been able to continue keeping us as global policemen.

In the long run, I think that if the United States ceases being the world’s superpower, we won’t see another one rise up. China and India just do not have any interest in filling the role we fill. China wants power over its portion of Asia, it doesn’t want to be intervening in the affairs of other countries to the level that the United States does. What China instead would want to do is send token forces with U.N. missions so it keeps its international reputation looking rosy, but it has no desire to or wish to engage in large scale unilateral action across the other side of the globe. There is an infrastructure that has to be built for that which I do not believe any other country will seek to build over the next century.

Or be hunted down and killed by the mobs or warlords or new government. Or die of starvation if they manage to take down civilization in general with them. Parasites like them can’t survive without a wealthy society to suck off of.

Not that I think a war is particularly likely in the foreseeable future, but I understand that France was Germany’s biggest trading partner before the World Wars. And we traded plenty with them too. So I wouldn’t put that much faith in trade promoting peace.

I agree with this. Being a superpower isn’t profitable, it’s a self indulgence driven by ideology or ego. No one else around at the moment with the desire to dominate the world as America has been trying to is remotely in a position to pull it off.

I admire your honesty. I know tons of right wingers who hate and disdain the weak, those on the fringes of ‘police society’ and the poor, but they always hide from that fact about themselves and pretend their motives are different. At least you are open and honest about it. And you have enough insight to understand how tribalism is used to divide & conquer. Most right wingers I have known subscribe to the tribalism w/o being self aware enough to know what is happening to them or who is behind it. All they understand is that their white taxes are funding lazy blacks and mexicans and they are angry about it. Your unapologetic self awareness is refreshing.

The soviet union ended up being even more of a nation where the powerful and well connected walked all over the weak than they ever were before.

However I’m confused as to how a guy with such a transparent, unapologetic social darwinist ideology could sweet talk so many strangers into letting him into their home (you say you were a door to door salesman) and talk them into buying various products.

It would be awesome if HRoark43 was a sock puppet for gonzomax.

America is declining because the rich have been so successful in concentrating wealth in the top 2% of the population. Continuing to lower taxes on the rich and reducing government spending on infrastructure will only hasten that decline.

I never brought politics into the discussion. Or I simply kissed their ass. I sold to liberals and conservatives alike as if they were all the same; and really, they are.

Besides, back then my views weren’t as crystal clear as they are now. Another reason to keep my mouth shut.

People have said in this thread that China doesn’t want to be the next superpower, as does India, however people seem to forget that the US a long time ago itself didn’t want to be a superpower, however, it had the role thrust upon it.

Not really. The US wanted to stop the spread of communism, and for that it turned into a superpower. In the end, this turned out to be just as destructive a policy for us as spreading communism was for the Soviets.

France and Germany also shared a common border. Additionally, they had fought major wars against each other multiple times in the past. Additionally, they were both in large alliance groups that essentially bound them to war against one another in the case of conflict (the only analogue with China is it is sorta aligned with N.K., no clue if they’d really expend blood and tears for Kim’s regime, though.)

Finally, after the Franco-Prussia War in the 1870s Germany annexed Alsace-Lorraine, which was a region that France strongly identified as being part of France’s “home” territory. It was a major, major issue between Franco-German relations and almost guaranteed that whenever France was powerful enough another war would be fought between the two powers.

Finally, it was a different world. Major powers were still operating under the 19th century mindset at the outset of WWI, namely that massive wars could be fought, the party that was “winning” would sue for peace and moderate territorial concessions would be made. WWI ended up blowing up way bigger and way more intense, so it was really game changing. WWII was mostly a defensive war pitting hyper-expansionist authoritarian regimes against the rest of the world. China is authoritarian but not hyper-expansionist. The Chinese government doesn’t have any sort of intrinsic support system based on its convincing its people that they live in an “us vs them” world. Nazi Germany was very good at convincing its people that they essentially were locked in this conflict with the rest of the world that “had to happen.” Despite the people who washed their hands of it and spoke of how stupid and foolish Hitler was, the truth of the matter is the majority of Germans strongly supported him until he started losing the war. The USSR filled its people with propaganda about the United States and the capitalist oppressors.

China just isn’t the same, at all. Their legitimacy is they are government, and China has a very long history of obeying the powers that be. The Chinese government is also more flexible and more deliberate than the Soviet, with less turmoil from leadership changing hands and etc.

Kipling wrote a poem called “The Peace of Dives” (named after a rich man in a New Testament story), which was about how there would never be a war between the great powers because, well, it would probably be really bad for business, and surely a capitalist society would never chose that path? This was a decade before World War one.

http://www.kipling.org.uk/poems_dives.htm

Oh, I agree; that’s why I said “not that I think a war is particularly likely in the foreseeable future”. I was just making the point that relying too much on the profit motive for peace (or anything else) from another nation is a bad idea. Governments can and do decide that other things are more important.

No it didn’t it was the ushering of World War One which propelled American power onto the worlds stage, and remember, the US was the worlds richest country by 1900, the end of world war two and the subsequent cold war is what cemented the superpower status of the US.

If someone overtakes us, it won’t be China. They have been lucky to have the right economic policy to take full advantage of a demographic wave of workers, but that will go in decline.

They have two HUGE provinces that they have to keep under near-martial law just to keep them from breaking off. There is a huge amount of poverty, a widening gap, and lots of anger. The central government is not as strong as it is popularly imagined, and is constantly having to balance power with strong regional forces. The populace is subdued only by prosperity, with no ability to remain cohesive through economic shocks. The place has a lurking potential to come apart at the seams.

Ahhh, yes, China, the kinder, gentler country :dubious:

This is somewhat humorous and unfortunately, shows one of the shortcomings of GDP measurement, or more the more popular wealth (= assets - liabilities) distribution (also often confused with income). I was going to start a topic about this (i.e. the growth from 1 to 2%), but I had to leave for extensive overseas business travel, and really, I just don’t care. I could’ve sworn the often trotted out line is the top 1% is acquiring all the wealth. All of a sudden, the talking points are now pointing to the top 2%.

Let me know when it’s the top 10%, because then I think I’ll finally be included.

As for America declining, I would say that the rest of the world is starting to catch up. But, the bone crushing poverty that I re-witnessed in China and, now, in India tells me that the rest of the world has a lot of catching up to do.

I agree, I was there last month, and it was even more depressing than my last visit. We were looking introduce more extensive automation into a fabrication facility, but given the roads and just generally crappy infrastructure (and the bribes and palm greasing by and for the contractors), we decided that it would be much easier to build further inland. Now, talk about poor. We’re putting the project on hold until we can work out negotiations with the government. I seriously believe that they don’t want to introduce too much modernization in such a poor and undeveloped area.

I don’t think it’s that they don’t want too much modernization, as much as they want it to happen in a very controlled way. I think there is a great deal of concern for modernizing inland China, but not at the expense of the large cities, which are considered the major source of wealth (not to mention political power). This is why you get some areas with mag-lev trains, and others that barely have roads.

The large prosperous East Coast cities are run under an almost entirely different system than the inland areas- taxes are different, social laws are different, the local economic system is different. Rich China and poor China are almost separate countries.

Anyway, I’m glad you brought this perspective. The vast majority of people writing about China are writing based on a visit to Shanghai or Guangzhou. They see some skyscrapers, go to some banquets, dance at the discos and assume that is what all of China is like. They know there is poverty (and might even spend a day in a village) but assume that poverty is an aberration that is on its way out.

I don’t remember that, and I doubt anyone else does either.

No, not at all. They just want to avoid sending billions to the Castros and Pinochets of this world. Which is unavoidable if you start building a global empire.