Is the US in serious trouble, trouble so bad that our survival as a nation is very much in question?

[Bytegeist]

Look to China for the future. … I understand they already manufacture more cars than America. And they don’t have recalls.

Well, no recalls of cars maybe.

Yet.

[Stoneburg]

I think the US is doomed, but I also think that when the empire falls, it will bring down pretty much everyone else due to the interdependence of states.

Basically the US is borrowing to pay for their lifestyle, and there is no political will to change that. They’re paying by printing money, and the nations who are buying up the debt need to keep doing it in order to protect their previously bought debt. Add to that the immense military (what… 52% of the worlds total military budget?) and the fact that the military is both siphoning off the tax revenue and strong-arming other nations into supplying the US economy with resources… it doesn’t strike me as a sustainable situation.

I spent a few weeks in the US during 2008 and went home with the impression that “We are totally fucked. No matter what we do”. The consumption hysteria, the polarization and the (for lack of a better word) massive ignorance just did not inspire hope. When it comes to restructuring society into something more sustainable, the US isn’t just behind most western nations. They’re going the other way, full speed ahead.

[msmith537]

@The_Flying_Dutchman

The technological might that America has today is an illusion. The advantage in any particular area is short lived and only relevant within the framework of like minded countries who respect patents and international law.

I don’t even know what this means.

@The_Flying_Dutchman

Militarily, the West and its military prowess has already become irrelevant. The insurgents have already demonstrated that for us in Afghanistan. America and its first world allies no longer have the stomach. to fight.

Really? Because we’ve been at it for about ten years now. We certainly have the will to fight. We just don’t use that will effectively.

@The_Flying_Dutchman

We’ve seen this before in the decline of empires.

And I’ve heard this before about Japan taking over the USA about 20 years ago.

@The_Flying_Dutchman

Look to China for the future. Presently they have achieved prosperity by manufacturing for the 1st world market. They will get to a point where their citizenry will be their best market for their own manufacturing base and no longer need the west. I understand they already manufacture more cars than America.

Or look to China to become a giant speculative bubble. Or maybe they will get to a point where it is more profitable for them to outsource their manufacturing to places like Vietnam.

The problem is that people tend to view current trends as if they will continue indefinitely…and they are usually wrong.

[Rigamarole]

@jayjay

Is this an “Obama is a Communist!” comment or a “The Chinese OWN the US!” comment?

The latter.

I love how GM sold the Hummer corporation to the Chinese last year (and what could be more American than a Hummer?). We’re well on our way.

[Declan]

@penultima_thule

I remember one now long forgotten poster replying to a question on the rise of China saying that it wasn’t an issue, because if the Chinese encroached on US supremacy then they’d be “glassed”. Don’t hear that very often now.

Just cause you dont hear it , does not make it less true or that Teddy Bears have taken over policy making.

China makes a good antipode for people who want the USA to have some sort of balancing force, its just not realistic to think that any one country today or even tommorow is going to be able to actually counter the US in anyway other than moralistic venues.

First it was the Soviet Union, then it was Japan in the eighties, now its China.

Whose next, Brazil ???

Regardless of who has what in their Military arsenal and what they want to do vis a vis the future of their Military, they do not have the confidence to seriously take on the USA.

Till that changes, the rest of the world will continue to muddle along in the status quo

Declan

[Koxinga]

@Declan

China makes a good antipode for people who want the USA to have some sort of balancing force, its just not realistic to think that any one country today or even tommorow is going to be able to actually counter the US in anyway other than moralistic venues.

Finance? Manufacturing? GDP growth?

[msmith537]

@Rigamarole

I love how GM sold the Hummer corporation to the Chinese last year (and what could be more American than a Hummer?). We’re well on our way.

Well…I’m really sure why China would want to buy a brand that has been declining in sales by about 50% for the past 2 years.

Companies and their brands aren’t “America”.

@Stoneburg

I think the US is doomed, but I also think that when the empire falls, it will bring down pretty much everyone else due to the interdependence of states.

What exactly does a “doomed” US look like? Do you envision America breaking up into its component states or something? Maybe we auction each state off to some other nation as a fund raiser? I mean where do you think the United States is actually going to go?

@Stoneburg

I spent a few weeks in the US during 2008 and went home with the impression that “We are totally fucked. No matter what we do”.

Well, I guess that makes you an expert.:rolleyes:

[marshmallow]

Someday the US flag will be a symbol of ironic hipsterdom in Shanghai and Mumbai.

[mecaenas]

@Zephyurs

Serious trouble? Don’t know. I figure we’ll bumble through whatever happens–I doubt America is going to end up fracturing into a half dozen rival countries, or everyone in it dying, or it falling into the sea.

I do think that America as an idea is very much in jeopardy–one of its defining tendencies is that it’s supposed to be the city on the hill, the last great hope for human civilization. That’s going to become more and more untenable, as other countries play catch up, both politically and economically.

That said, I think that’s going to happen anyway, regardless of whether politicians of a certain party continue on their hellbent quest to win at any cost or if they start acting patriotically for the best of the country. The end result will be similar, just a question of degree–in the 22nd century, do we want to be Britain or do we want to be Argentina?

Bolding mine.

That’s only in moments of mutual masterbation between American jingoists, the rest of us in the developed world never thought so.

[BrainGlutton]

@snailboy

I don’t think we’re close to a revolution or anything of that magnitude.

And, remember, we could have a revolution and still survive as a nation. France has, several times. Whether Kingdom, Empire, or any numbered Republic, France remains France. A nation is not its political constitution.

[BrainGlutton]

@Zephyurs

I do think that America as an idea is very much in jeopardy–one of its defining tendencies is that it’s supposed to be the city on the hill, the last great hope for human civilization.

I think that if you had said that to the delegates of the Continental Congress or the Constitutional Convention, all of them – except for maybe one or two New Englanders – would have looked at you like you were crazy.

[BrainGlutton]

@ITR_champion

Creditors hold power over debtors, not the other way around.

Depends. If I owe you a thousand dollars, I have a problem. If I owe you a million dollars, you have a problem.

[BrainGlutton]

@bump

What worries me is the aforementioned lack of compromise that I see- growing up, I don’t recall the politicians viewing the other party as “the enemy”, like they seem to these days. Nor do I remember Republicans or Democrats espousing the belief that the other party’s policies were unpatriotic, or the road to ruination, or that they’re immoral, evil bastards on the other side of the line. At least, I don’t remember the rhetoric being turned to 11 on that stuff.

Well, those were the days when the parties were not clearly ideological groupings – i.e., there were some liberal Republicans more liberal than some conservative Democrats. All that changed in the 1970s, when a lot of liberals migrated to the Dems and conservatives to the GOP. Now, the parties are still multi-tendency big-tents, and you might still find a particular Pub candidate more liberal than a given Dem; but they’re a lot nearer to ideologically homogeneous than the used to be.

[BrainGlutton]

@Chief_Pedant

I expect a relatively peaceful dissolution of our Republic within about 25 years, when future taxpayers walk away from their national debt the way we have allowed current debtholders to walk away from theirs. We are the predatory borrowers from future generations.

:dubious: See this thread.

[Stoneburg]

@Zephyurs

I do think that America as an idea is very much in jeopardy–one of its defining tendencies is that it’s supposed to be the city on the hill, the last great hope for human civilization.

Heh.

In most of the developed world that’s not quite how the US is viewed. “Most likely to cause WWIII” would probably be picked before your quote if non-Americans were given a multiple choice question. On “Able to evaluate yourself honestly” the US would not get a great score.

[Rigamarole]

@msmith537

Maybe we auction each state off to some other nation as a fund raiser?

That’s actually a great idea. I bet the Russians would have a lot of fun with West Virginia or Alabama. Then we sell Texas to Venezuela and Florida to Cuba (they’ve all been trying to get there for so long, might as well give it to them): economic crisis solved!

[Koxinga]

@Rigamarole

That’s actually a great idea. I bet the Russians would have a lot of fun with West Virginia or Alabama. Then we sell Texas to Venezuela and Florida to Cuba (they’ve all been trying to get there for so long, might as well give it to them): economic crisis solved!

In what sense does the federal government “own” any of the sovereign states?

[BrainGlutton]

@Koxinga

In what sense does the federal government “own” any of the sovereign states?

Interesting question. It is established by precedent that the federal government may acquire new territory, by purchase or conquest. And it is established by precedent that the federal government may stop any part of the American territory, even a “sovereign state,” from seceding. But whether the federal government may sell or alienate or surrender a state (as distinct from a territory, like the Philippines) is a question that has yet to be tested. And one largely irrelevant to this discussion, of course.

[Oveja_Slayer]

Are we in trouble? You betcha?

Will we “survive?” I would say no, but I’m not saying decent into anarchy/civil war or whatever necessarily (though always a possibility). I’m not even saying a revolution.

At the very least, our government will cease to resemble anything close to the Constitution (we are hanging onto it by a thread as it is). We are shifting out of a Republic (a mock republic at this point) and into a full fledged oligarchy. This is not about Obama, though like all recent presidents, he is aiding in this process.

The masses are going to have to start living on a third world budet (our wealth distribution already resembles a third world nation) while wealth continues to be consolidated by the top 1% of the population.

More control more socialized federal programs, less liberties, less civil rights (for all people, not rights based on race/creed/etc), heightened intranational security (i.e. militarized police), CCTV heaven (much like the UK is right now), and extreme violation of free speech and the right to peacefully assemble.

I expect to see us become a “North American Union” of sorts, offered as a solution to our economic plight we are digging ourselves into. I expect a new form of currency as the dollar drops off and the world’s abandonment of it picks up speed.

I expect we’ll have to essentially declare “bankruptcy” or at least default on some of our loans and we’ll need some infrastructure overhaul, perhaps overseen by the UN (and perhaps setting the stage for an EU style arrangment across the pond).

I expect issues with food, fuel, energy, and other commodities. Not like rioting in the street levels, but perhaps rationing levels akin to past decades (or perhaps much more severe - along the lines of soviet Russia).

I expect growing civil unrest as the government usurps power from the people to make yet another elite ruling class that cripples a nation’s people. I expect some violent riots and protesting. I expect the government to use isolated events to demonize anyone who opposes their plans (they are already doing this and have been for quite some time anyway, nothing new there).

I might be wrong. Perhaps there will be a successful (political) revolution of the people and we can instill a government that represents us once again.

So will we wake up one morning and it’s all gone? No, it’s a process. I do see us approaching the threshhold, where whatever comes after America is in the process of being born.

For better or for worse, I am fairly certain it’s coming.

[BrainGlutton]

@Oveja_Slayer

I do see us approaching the threshhold, where whatever comes after America . . .

Would still be America. A nation is not its constitution.